In just four years, Nimlas Group scaled from 1.5 to 10 billion SEK while maintaining strong profitability. CEO Christoffer Järkeborn joins us to discuss leadership, why profitability matters, managing a group of 130+ companies, why managers need to get out of the office, and more.
3 takeaways from the conversation with Christoffer Järkeborn
1. Profitability before growth
In just a few years, Nimlas has grown from 1.5 to 10 billion SEK in revenue by acquiring and building over 130 companies, but Christoffer emphasizes that growth only comes after profitability. “Growth is earned,” he says. “Profitability is the foundation.” By maintaining strong financial discipline, Nimlas has stayed resilient even through a market downturn, proving that fast growth and profitability can go hand in hand.
2. Bureaucracy kills effectiveness
Christoffer believes most large organizations are slowed down by unnecessary complexity. His solution: radical decentralization. Each local company in Nimlas has full responsibility for its people, customers, and operations, while the group leverages its size for finance, procurement, and systems. “We want to be a really big company, but not a large corporation,” he says. “Simplicity wins always.”
3. Recession is for others
When competitors started cutting prices in response to a weaker market, Nimlas doubled down on margins and efficiency instead. “Recession is for others,” Christoffer insists. By keeping focus on leadership, cost discipline, and the 85% of the market that’s still active, Nimlas continued to grow and even improved profitability during a downturn. It’s a mindset that defines both the company and its culture.
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Podcast transcript
Josua: Christopher, welcome. Welcome to [00:00:30] the podcast. Welcome to to the Show. Thank you very much. Um, I think. Your company, the, the company that you’re CEO of now, Nimlas Group, a very, very exciting company. Um, and I think it’s a company that most of our listener, most people haven’t heard about. Um, so really interested [00:00:45] to kind of get into that.
Josua: But before we get there, um, I wanna talk a little bit about your background. ’cause you have a, I think, quite unusual, um, kind of journey to, to the CEO of a very, you know, private equity backed, fast growing, uh, company in the [00:01:00] installation, uh, space. So, uh, can you kind of briefly walk through what, uh, what led you to where you are today?
Christoffer: Yeah, I can do the, the quick summer of my life. Yeah. So I, I grew up in a small town in Sweden called Le Shopping, and today I still, I, [00:01:15] I moved back. So we are back in LEED Chop. With my family, and I grew up in a blue collar family. Uh, I loved school and I was very, and when I was young, I went into local politics.
Christoffer: So that was my, what I was doing, uh, except from [00:01:30] sports. And then I went into law school. So that’s my start. And um, when I was 21 years old, the, my party that I was involved in won the election. So I started my career in the, in working for the government. Mm-hmm. So I become a political [00:01:45] advisor at the Minister of Justice when I was just 21, 22.
Christoffer: And a few years later I become Chief of Staff. So I was part of the leadership of the Ministry of Justice. So I spent six years in the government and after that I went into Skanska. So one of the [00:02:00] largest construction. Development companies in the world. Uh, and I had different positions. First I was working very closely with the leader, the global leadership team of Skanska.
Christoffer: I was working in Skanska, USA with big infrastructure [00:02:15] development. I then came back to Sweden and took over as, um, the leadership of construction in Stockholm. And I have also been, uh, a leader for residential development. So 10 years in Skanska. That was an amazing CEO training. And then since [00:02:30] three years, I am today a company builders.
Christoffer: I, I build a company together with private equity and a lot of amazing people in my organization. So we are today 5,000 people in this group, 10 billion revenue, and we are called Mila. So we are doing [00:02:45] technical installations. We are the fourth largest in the Nordic. That’s,
Josua: um, it’s really kind of exciting, exciting journey.
Josua: And, um, since I think in three year or four years, I think Nimlas has gone from like one and a half billion Swedish grown to 10 billion in revenue. Yeah, that’s true. Which is [00:03:00] insane.
Josua: Yeah.
Josua: It’s like over a 50%, uh, company, annual growth rate and 130 companies I think.
Christoffer: Yeah.
Josua: 137 today. Okay. And we’re growing all the time.
Christoffer: We are buying companies and we’re also starting companies.
Josua: Okay. Yeah. I wanna talk about, definitely talk about those two things. But you went from being, [00:03:15] um, being at Skaska, which is a major company, you’re, you know, presumably a good trajectory, good benefits, you know, work that you clearly enjoyed since you were there for 10 years.
Josua: What made you take the step of going into a much smaller company, presumably high risk, more demanding? Um, [00:03:30] was that a big, was it a big kind of, um, a leap for you? Or was it a natural kind of.
Christoffer: I mean, I mean, first, let’s be honest, it’s co it’s a completely different game to be in Skanska and a publicly company compared to what I’m doing today.
Christoffer: What I’m doing today is a bit crazy. The pace is [00:03:45] crazy. Yeah. I mean, it’s private equity. We are growing, as us said, from 1.5 billion to 10 billion in a few years. So we are adding new companies all the time, but we are also focusing on building a real company. Mm. So it’s, it’s very different. I’m so happy that I ha I had done a shift [00:04:00] before when I went from government.
Christoffer: Mm. It’s very different to being government. And I am actually one of you in, in Sweden that has been on top level in politics, in government going into being real CEOI mean, we have some people in, in, in business, but very few leading companies as A CEO. [00:04:15] So, and it was a big shift. So I have done the shift before, so I knew that this would be very different.
Christoffer: Um, the Skanska’s former, uh, CEOU won Carl, uh, that recruited me to Skanska. When I started, uh, he’s my chairman today. [00:04:30] Okay. So that was, for me, important. I knew him. Uh, I had a lot of, you know, I didn’t know a lot about private equity or, you know, build company and grow with the pace. One of the reasons I, I left Skanska, I, I think Skanska was an amazing school for [00:04:45] me.
Christoffer: Mm. But I felt it was a bit too slow and I wanted to learn something new and add on new, you know, learn more stuff. I felt, you know, I want to, I also had a lot of, you know. Opinions in Skanska how I thought we should run the company. I thought we [00:05:00] could run it more effectively. Uh, I thought we invested too much into hr, you know, those kind of functions.
Christoffer: I felt that they become a little bit too much of a police that not helping the business. So I had a lot of ideas, so I felt, let’s go out [00:05:15] here and let’s see. You know, let’s. Let’s not fight internally. Let’s take the CU position in a smaller company than Skanska.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: But let’s create a company I believe in and we believe in.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. So that has been super fun. This is the most fun thing I have ever done.
Josua: [00:05:30] Hmm. Yeah. I I I can, can imagine that’s like one of the driving things that drive a lot of people who make that shift is that having your own ideas Exactly. And wanting to see them implemented.
Christoffer: Yeah. So my husband is telling me mm-hmm.
Christoffer: I’m working much, much more here.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: So when I was in Skanska, I had to do like [00:05:45] local politicians on my free time because, uh, people said, you are working too hard. Right. At the same time I was member of city council, I was working, you know, but I’m working much, much more here, but I’m less tired. Yes.
Christoffer: And less frustrated. Yes. So I, I really [00:06:00] enjoying to build, you know, a company I really believe in to be the real company and to build a company where. You know, I, we have built a company, MLAs, where the local companies are the foundation. Mm-hmm. The people that get the jobs done, the plumber based electricians.
Christoffer: [00:06:15] Hmm. And I think it’s so good to see today that you can build a real company without a lot of bureaucracy that a lot of the publicly set companies have. So I think we need to change that and be more effective going forward.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: In the society as whole.
Josua: Yeah.
Christoffer: A
Josua: lot of things to [00:06:30] unpack there. Probably start with effectiveness, I think.
Josua: Uh, let’s see. Um, one thing, one thing that you’ve been, um, one thing that you said is, uh, I think this was my translation from Swedish, but yeah. Paraphrasing. The best companies I’ve seen [00:06:45] all share one thing. They have lower costs than their competitors. Yes. Um, and you kind of alluded that with, you know, not billing these big overhead functions, so, um, cost effectness at, at MLAs.
Josua: Like how do you approach that? Yeah, because obviously, I mean, you need to
Christoffer: have overhead of course. And I, and I, you [00:07:00] know, I, I think we have amazing people in MLAs, in hr, in, in sustainability. I mean, they’re super important.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: But for, let’s start with the, I I have ne, I mean, for me, low cost is good leadership.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: I mean, for me it’s not, uh, hard on that. [00:07:15] Uh, what I have seen is that most, most companies are in, in a competitiveness, you know, market. So it’s hard for companies to completely set the price level. Yes. So most people believe that they can, but I [00:07:30] mean, let’s be honest, when we are doing a work for a construction company, for example, we are biding for a school.
Christoffer: We can’t take 10 million if the market is saying the price level are eight. Yeah. So to be more profitable, you need to work with the cost. Mm. And for me, lower cost is better [00:07:45] leadership. You get everything out of the, you know, if you have five people, they work a hundred, you get 100% of everyone, or you can have seven and you get 50%, then you get less of the, of the organization.
Christoffer: So for me, it’s a lot about leadership and, and I have had [00:08:00] opportunity now for, for 20 years to see leadership in schools, leadership in the police, leadership in a big listed company and leadership in a technical installation company like Mila. And I have never seen, uh, an [00:08:15] organization or a leader that in a long-term perspective are combining bad economy with good quality.
Christoffer: It never happens. Mm-hmm. The best heads of schools they have, uh, they have good economy, they have excellent education, the same in [00:08:30] construction, the same in technical installation. So the best managers. They always combine good, uh, order in, in the numbers with good, uh, quality and good leadership.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: And so that’s, so I think focusing on [00:08:45] cost is so important to be, you know, profitable and to be able to invest in, you know, the people in sustainability, in innovation. That’s really
Josua: interesting because I think, uh, probably for, you know, among the broader public, there’s this dicho false [00:09:00] dichotomy between quality and cost.
Josua: And, you know, if you’re trying to be very cost efficient and, you know, um, it’s gonna be low quality, but I think it’s the opposite. You are, yeah. You’re arguing it’s actually the opposite.
Christoffer: Yeah. And I think, you know, I think it’s important. Uh, for example, if you take HR for example, I think HR [00:09:15] is super important.
Christoffer: I think the HR people we have in MLAs, they are really part of the business. They’re part of the operations, they’re part of ing the industry. But I don’t be, I think for me it’s more important then we do the right thing. [00:09:30] Then the process is right.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: I mean, for me it’s, I want, I, I’m telling all my 130 local managing directors, uh, you need to be a good manager.
Christoffer: I want you to be engaged with your, with your people, but we don’t have, you know, you, [00:09:45] you need to have one hour talking about this. Mm. Or one hour talking about this. And sometimes I felt, you know, working in the government and working in a big listed company, it was more important to fill in, you know, the documents than doing the job.
Christoffer: Yeah. And, and, and I think [00:10:00] here we can change. So I think it’s so important to decide what is most important Yeah. And focus on that, uh, and, and to trust your leaders. Yeah. I mean, most pe most leaders are really, really good. Hmm. And they, uh, and, and they are, [00:10:15] they care about the people. They care about the people’s development.
Christoffer: Uh, but if I look at my managing directors, they are super strong at leadership, super strong on the, you know, operations and on customers. But I don’t have academic people in my organization. Most of [00:10:30] my managing directors, they are plumber electricians that, uh, and they are managing directors today. So I think it’s also important to understand what kind of company are, am I leading today?
Christoffer: And if, if I would force a lot of bureaucracy on them, I would kill the, [00:10:45] you know, the amazing culture we have where they take a lot of responsibility.
Josua: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think, um, that’s probably something that is, is hard for people to understand. I mean, with 137 org companies, like how do you create that kind of, um, [00:11:00] how do you avoid that?
Josua: I mean, bureaucracy, it’s so easy to see how you’d fall into the trap of bureaucracy because you wanna have control and you want to have, uh, uniformity and you wanna have processes in place to make sure that you’re managing risks and so forth. So I think there’s like a very natural tendency to, to add a lot of bureaucracy and maybe [00:11:15] each individual, like rule.
Josua: Makes a lot of sense, but taken together, they just suffocate the people doing the work. So how do you as an, uh, as a, a kind of, um, leader of these 137 managing directors, what levers do you [00:11:30] pull? Uh, what tools do you give them to enable this kind of like, really high focus on quality and cost at the same time?
Josua: Yeah.
Christoffer: I think the first thing is to, you need to decide what kind of model you have. Yeah. So, so we have in MLAs we have decided we are combining, [00:11:45] we have a very decentralized culture when it comes to, uh, the MDR in full responsibility for the personnel, for the customers, and for project and service and renovation.
Christoffer: What we are doing. But then we are combining with using the [00:12:00] range of being a large group when it comes to finance. We are integrating all the companies into our ERP systems. Mm-hmm. We have strong finance functions. Super important. And they are, they are of course a cost, but they are creating profit. Yeah.
Christoffer: And they are making the company [00:12:15] stronger. We, uh, uh, we use procurement. So we are integrating them into the procurement systems. We are doing procurement, uh, centrally to get the benefits of being a big group because in our industry size matters mm-hmm. When it comes to procurement or, so [00:12:30] when it comes to hr, salaries, succession planning, then we are super strong.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. And we are super clear. This is our model. And so, so, so, so I think, you know, to be super clear on the model we are combining Yes. Uh, two decentralization when it comes to people, personnel, [00:12:45] customers, and using the range of being a large group. Mm. Uh, and, and then it’s important when it comes to the people, when it comes to, uh, to the customers or when it comes to production, then we could not have too much of Yes.
Christoffer: You know, policies when it comes to finance. [00:13:00] Then we have a, you know, clear policies, guidelines, this is how we run the business. And, um, and we are buying companies, but we also start companies. And when we buy companies, it’s also very important, um, what companies are we buying? So we are really [00:13:15] talking with them a lot so they understand this is the model.
Christoffer: Because I mean, it’s like, I mean, I, I like to be in a, in a relationship. Mm. But if you are in a relationship, you need to compromise. If I want to eat pizza every night, I can be single. Mm. If I, you know, if [00:13:30] I can, I have pizza some days, but I have, you know, pasta or a salad some other days. That’s, that’s the part of being in a relationship.
Christoffer: Mm. That’s also the part of being in a big group. So we are super clear. This is your responsibility even after we have bought this company. But our [00:13:45] goal is not to just buy you and leave, leave you alone. Our goal is always to make the companies we are buying better. So this is what we’re adding. From finance perspective, from procurement, from leadership.
Christoffer: We have Nimlas academies, training all the managing directors, training project [00:14:00] leaders, et cetera. So I think the first one is to be super clear. Mm-hmm. And then we talk a lot about bureaucracy. Mm. Because I’m so, it’s so easy to build a large mm-hmm. We have said our goal is to be a really big company, but not a large corporation.
Christoffer: So [00:14:15] we talk a lot when we implement stuff. Is it too heavy? Uh, we also try, we also have, uh, both when it comes to cost and bureaucracy, we are saying it’s like cutting your nails. You need to focus on it all the time. Mm-hmm.
Josua: Because it’s
Christoffer: so easy, as you said mm-hmm. To [00:14:30] start implementing more. Mm-hmm. So we are talking about it and uh, and uh, we have a culture where we are saying simplicity wins always.
Christoffer: Uh, I think it’s more important that we are clear. So when we have like a policy document. [00:14:45] I prefer to have it very clear and very simple so everyone knows exactly what to do instead of having 25 pages.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: And I think it’s, the company becomes better.
Josua: Yeah. Okay. So it’s about being very clear, um, communicating and acting, [00:15:00] acting out these, uh, principles from the top.
Josua: Yes. And then you kind of attract people who have that same mindset. They love clarity. They love efficiency. They wanna get things done. Yes. They wanna move fast. Yes. Um, and one thing that’s obviously very critical to the kind of effectiveness and profitability, and you alluded to it, [00:15:15] is you have all these companies, um, and, and they know the people who run those companies.
Josua: They know the staff, they know the projects, they know the customers. And it’s really key that they are motivated to make sure that you get all the profitability out of the, the, the projects that you have. Exactly. So how do you, you, you [00:15:30] kinda maybe mentioned it already, but how do you ensure that. When someone, you know, when they’re running their own business, let’s say they got 20 electricians somewhere in Finland.
Josua: Yes. And, uh, you know, they own the business outright, so of course they’re motivated to make sure that ’cause any profit is, goes into their pocket, [00:15:45] then they sell to Nili. How do you make sure that, uh, they are as motivated as before to run the, their company? In terms of both in terms, you know, high quality and high efficiency?
Christoffer: Yeah, it’s a good question and it’s not so hard.
Josua: Mm. [00:16:00]
Christoffer: Uh, so let me start with, what kind of companies are we looking for? Most of the times we are buying a company. Um, it’s founder of one or two people, electrician or plumber. They started a company maybe 20 years ago. They are, in my age, around 40. Uh, they [00:16:15] have now taken the company to let’s say, 5 million euro in revenue.
Christoffer: They have 25 electricians or 25 plumbers, and they feel I have taken the company to the level where I can take the company. If I’m going to scale to take the company to 10 million euro in revenue, I [00:16:30] need to have new ERP systems. I need to have a, you know, CFOI, I need to invest a lot and I need to get a lot of revenue to be able to do that.
Christoffer: So, so we are looking for the companies where they have done an amazing job building the company, but they’re feeling, should I do [00:16:45] this in 20 more years? Mm-hmm. So, so we, we, we like the founders that like to build. Mm-hmm. So they are, they are partnering with us. They’re, and, and all the good companies can choose to sell to us or to someone else.
Christoffer: It’s a lot of, you know, com [00:17:00] competition about best companies they can choose and when they’re choosing us. And it has never been so easy for us to buy companies as today. I can come back to that, but when we are choosing customers and they’re choosing us, we always do a plan. We have to take this company, you know, both [00:17:15] from a profitability perspective, but also in a growth perspective.
Christoffer: One thing that’s also is very, that they really like is that the first time in their life they get colleagues. If you are leading your, uh, you know, your MD today, uh, managing director, you [00:17:30] have 136 colleagues that you can call that you, that can help each other. Uh, and when I talked to the companies we have bought, uh, two years after we bought the company, most of them are telling me the, the first year was, I mean, it was crazy.
Christoffer: [00:17:45] First we bought the company. So it’s a process with that. Then after we in, you know, we changed ERP systems, we integrated them into the procurement systems. We, you know, they have never before done the financial control. We have, I mean, we are doing monthly financial control. We are focusing [00:18:00] much more on, you know, different customers on segments, on, you know, everything.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: But they’re telling me, and they have also never had a manager before.
Josua: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: And now they have a manager.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: And they, they tell me, uh, I’m a much, much better managing director today.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. [00:18:15] Uh, the company’s much better. But it was tough. So it’s a little bit like putting good MDs into 60 weeks of hell and making them a Super md.
Christoffer: That is what we’re trying to do.
Josua: Hmm. That’s really interesting. Alright. Would you say compared to your, the big four competitors, [00:18:30] uh, which are, they’re also acquiring companies, maybe not at the rate that you are, but would you say that, um, you are focusing more very clearly on empowering these entrepreneur leaders than maybe some of your competitors?
Josua: Like you really focus on making, making sure that [00:18:45] they are the ones who continue to run the business and you just give them the support and sometimes, you know, maybe both carrot and stick
Christoffer: Yeah. To
Josua: make them into
Christoffer: better leaders. Yeah, I think, you know, and if you look at MLAs, we have grown faster. We are also have the highest profitability.
Christoffer: If you look at the last year’s numbers, so we are today the fourth [00:19:00] largest, but the most profitable. Um, I think the model we have is, is superb. You, you can find competitors that are buying companies and they just leave the companies alone. Mm-hmm. So they buy companies, but they don’t add anything. Uh, they don’t integrate into [00:19:15] ERP systems.
Christoffer: They don’t, you know, I mean, they change nothing. Mm. And then you have other competitors that they buy companies and they rebrand it, you know, they take over it. So I think the model we have, um, where we are combining this, you know, decentralization, we are, because what, [00:19:30] what the EMDs are telling me in the companies we are buying, they, you know, they are spending too much time on finance, too much time on administration, and that is what we are taking over more so they can focus even more on personnel, customers and, you know, operational [00:19:45] excellence.
Josua: Yeah.
Christoffer: So I think the model we have, uh, is superb and quite few competitors have the same model. Mm-hmm. You have super decentralized, they’re also decentralized in procurement, finance. Mm-hmm. And then you have the very centralized. So I think the combination we have is, uh, is really good. It’s
Josua: [00:20:00] really interesting.
Josua: It does seem to be working. Um, I was talking before, um, a co couple weeks ago, I was talking with a friend who’s a unit manager at one of your big competitors, and I told him about our conversation, asked him, you know, what I should ask you and so forth. And one of the things he was, you know, really [00:20:15] kind of impressed by with, uh, WeWorks in Finland or with QMG, um, was the profitability.
Josua: Yeah. Like the, the level of profitability that you’re able to reach at that big of a scale. You know, it’s one thing, like you said, if you’re 25 plumbers, you can keep all the costs down, you’re running all the products yourself, but to do it at scale is [00:20:30] like, he was very impressed by that. Yeah. So, um, that’s good to hear
Christoffer: because I think, you know, grow, we, we are all saying growth is earned.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. Profitability is the foundation. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, we are, we, we love to grow and the, the, we like, we love to grow the local companies. [00:20:45] But they’re all only allowed to grow if they are profitable. Mm-hmm. Yes. And the same, if we stop being profitable at the group, group level, we will stop growing. I mean yeah.
Christoffer: Profitability first, then growth. But we are super proud of the profitability level. Yeah. As when we compare to competitors, we are not where [00:21:00] we want to be. Mm-hmm. But we have had a really tough market with recession. Yes. And we have kept, and we have actually improved profitability Yes. In a super tough market.
Christoffer: So we are proud of that.
Josua: Yeah. And it does seem to, to be from a finished perspective, ’cause I’ve seen this in, in your case, in other cases, that the [00:21:15] Swedes really know how to do this type of model with the serial acquirers and, and having the right amount of centralization in the right places. Um, but you mentioned, uh, recessions.
Josua: There’s one quote that I wanted to, uh, to ask you about as well. You said that [00:21:30] recession is for others. We are not doing recessions. Yeah. And in, in fact, you said you were able to improve profitability, you were able to grow both organically and inorganically in a very tough market condition. Yes. So
Christoffer: how, yeah.
Christoffer: We have been pushing super hard.
Josua: [00:21:45] Mm.
Christoffer: Recession is for others, we are not doing recession. Uh, and it’s works. So we have And what do we mean by that? Uh, I mean, the market is down 15% the last two years. 15. 15, 1 5, but we still have 80 to 5% of the market. [00:22:00]
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: So let’s focus on that and, and, and, and, uh, what is happening with people.
Christoffer: I think what is happening with people’s brain in recession is that people start thinking, I need to lower the cost. I need to lower the cost, I need to price myself [00:22:15] in. And I have seen it in, I have seen it in other companies. I’ve seen all the time. This is what I have seen in the technical installation industry.
Christoffer: Many of the competitors, what they did when the markets went down, they cut the price. What we decided to do was that we are not doing recession. [00:22:30] We will not, you know, cut the price and lose profitability, then we do other stuff instead. Uh, so we have decided to not do that. And in our industry, if we have a local company in the local market, when the competitors have won, you know, their [00:22:45] jobs, then we can win them on the good profitability level.
Christoffer: Uh, I also think with the combination that we, so, so, so when you are telling leaders you are not allowed to do recession, I mean, focus on the 85% of the market [00:23:00] that are still out there, focus on the pockets that are growing, the fans criminal justice area, focus on the local companies. Uh, and, and we are pushing also hard that all local companies should be number one in their local market.
Christoffer: And when they [00:23:15] are, they also can call the customers and they can create their own market. So, so what I have seen in the market happening is that people are lowering the cost and they destroy profitability. And then they, I I think they believe in the beginning that they will be able to, you know mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Lift the [00:23:30] profitability. It never happens. Mm-hmm. So we have said to our organization, we are not doing recession. Recession is for others. Uh, and it works. Uh, and it’s the same with sustainability. Mm-hmm. If you say, uh, what do I have to choose between sustainability, profitability? [00:23:45] No, you have to do both. I mean, uh, and I, so, so I think it works.
Christoffer: So, so I think it’s, it’s so important to have the, to, to be able to mentally Yes. Not be too afraid. And if you have to choose, I have told my managing directors, if you have to choose to get, to [00:24:00] take away people, we don’t want that. Hmm. Uh, or protect the margin. You need to protect the margin.
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: If we look at all the 130 companies we are today, very, very few companies have, uh, laid off people the last two years.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. So they have been [00:24:15] able to find, you know, new work. Mm-hmm. And instead of going because the toughest price, um. Price pressure is when you have to bid. Mm-hmm. But if you can, you know, if you can talk, you know, you, you are, you know, the market, you can talk, the [00:24:30] leader of the indus local industry shouldn’t be changed.
Christoffer: The lightings in your factory. Shouldn’t we do this? We have been talking about this. Mm-hmm. So we have been trying to do that. So we have protected profitability. Sometimes we have taken down the revenue, and if we had to, then we, we have to lay [00:24:45] off people. Mm. Because it’s so important for us to protect profitability.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. Because when we do that, then we can invest in the people. Mm-hmm. We can invest in academies, we can invest in buying new companies. We can invest in better ERP systems.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: Better systems for the companies. Mm-hmm. So when you [00:25:00] lose profitability, that is the only thing that you’re talking about. When I was in my former life, when I was head of, um, I was a local politician, I was head of, uh, the city, district of southern ma.
Christoffer: So I was responsible of elderly care [00:25:15] preschools. We had a budget of, uh, 200 million euro. Everyone, all the manager, all the leaders in that organization. When I was new, I was like 25 when I took over that they came to me and they talked about the millions they didn’t have. Mm-hmm. [00:25:30] And I told them from today, you are not allowed to talk about it.
Christoffer: You know, the 1 million or 2 million or 10 million, you don’t have, you need to focus on the 200 million you actually have. Mm-hmm. So you need to shift, you know, because they were so [00:25:45] focused on the 10 million they didn’t have. So they forget to focus on what to do with 200 million. Same in recession, focus on the 85%, you still have the 85% market there.
Josua: Hmm.
Christoffer: And focus on the, the pockets in the market that are growing.
Josua: Hmm. I love that because it’s so [00:26:00] simple, so clear and seemingly so effective. Yeah. People just respond to that. And if you, if you give kind of, um, if you give yourself an excuse, you’re gonna take that because it is a tough, I mean a recession, lower demand.
Josua: If you’re [00:26:15] gonna maintain your margins and if you’re gonna to grow, you will need to work harder. You will have to look. Yeah. You’ll need to try new things. Yeah. And uh, it’s easier to just say, well, you know, the market’s down.
Josua: Yeah.
Christoffer: So we’re just gonna, if you, if you look at the technical installation industry
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: On overwhelming the Nordics, it’s a very low [00:26:30] margin industry.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: And if you look at recession, people are lowering the price so they lose profitability. But if you look at what a lot of competitors are doing, when the market are growing, they’re not becoming more profitable. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because they add cost.
Christoffer: Yes. That’s why you need to focus on the cost. And if you have a [00:26:45] good leadership, you can have lower cost and then you become more profitable. Mm-hmm. So, so we are pushing because we believe now that the market will be better.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: So we have been pushing recession is for others, we’re not doing that.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: What we are now pushing hard is that when the market is becoming [00:27:00] better. Don’t destroy the profitability by adding on too much cost. Yeah. You need to be able to do more with the same amount of people that we have. Yes. Do more revenue on a project leader, more revenue on a managing director.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: Uh, because so many [00:27:15] of the competitors, when the market is picking up, everyone gets stressed and you, you start hiring people too early.
Christoffer: Yeah. And then you destroy profitability.
Josua: Yeah.
Josua: Uh, it seems like, uh, kind of the framework or the principles around leadership, quality, uh, [00:27:30] profitability effectiveness, are really all, they all fit, fit very neatly together and kind of have a coherent
Christoffer: Yeah.
Josua: Set of framework or
Christoffer: Yeah. Worldview. Yeah. And if you visit all our 130 local companies, you can feel the same culture.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: And, and, and, uh, and [00:27:45] so you can, you can feel this, you know, and I, I think, you know. I think it’s so important to use the really amazing people we have. Uh, and when you tell them don’t do recession, you need to find a solution. They do. Mm-hmm. If you tell them, I mean this, I mean, we have [00:28:00] seen now in the recession.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Uh, I mean, a lot of our companies have improved profitability. Yeah. In a tough market. Yeah. I mean, let’s see what they can do when the market is picking up.
Josua: That’s gonna be, yeah. It’ll be crazy. Um, and it probably, there’s a big [00:28:15] benefit to having such a large group of companies, because I’m sure you’re sharing insights and lessons internally and company, you know, managing directors can see that, you know, this company here, we’re able to improve.
Christoffer: Yeah.
Josua: You know, so it, it, it breaks the, the false belief that yeah, we’re not gonna [00:28:30] be able to do that. We are doing a ranking every month
Christoffer: in terms of profitability or in, yeah, we have three. We are all companies. We are doing it per country. Mm. So, so in Sweden, in Finland, and in Norway, uh, every month we are sending out a list to all the [00:28:45] companies.
Christoffer: We look at profitability in percentage, profitability in, you know, amount, how much, how much money and cash generation. Mm-hmm. And then we have a ranking, so you can see where you are in the ranking. So you can see if you’re number one or in the bottom, or in the middle. And in the [00:29:00] beginning people are, this is a bit too tough, but it’s, it’s amazing because what, what what I have understood is that people, most people want to be above middle.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So if we can move the middle from like one percentage [00:29:15] or two, we will move the whole organization. And it’s so good because people have so much excuses, especially man, I mean, man, we believe that we are more handsome. That we are, and if you ask a managing director, most of the time he or she believes that they are better mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Than what they are. Mm-hmm. But if you [00:29:30] give them the facts. And they always want to, you know, the market is tough for, my market is very different, or you know, I have different circumstances. I need bigger cars than my competitor. But if you list companies, if you show them and they can see, my God, is this company [00:29:45] delivering this?
Christoffer: Why could I do that? And then they start learning from each other talking to each other. Uh, we are also actually listing the cars because cars has become, uh, very expensive mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. At the company cars. So now we have, if you have a small car for a plumber, [00:30:00] electrician, that’s, um, one, if you have a mid size, then you get the value two, and if you have a large and get your value three.
Christoffer: And then what the companies have, like, uh, the average. Mm-hmm. So you can also compare and see, you know, where are you, uh, in the average of car sites.
Josua: Yeah.
Christoffer: [00:30:15] So I think to be completely transparent, yes. Uh, and uh, and I think it’s also good because when we, uh, you can have problems one year with profitability.
Christoffer: We can all have that. I have had it in my career.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: But, uh, you can’t [00:30:30] underperforming in the long-term perspective. So when we also take change, maybe changing managing director, everyone has already seen this company have problems. They understand why we in the management team are taking action. Yes. Why we are doing change.
Christoffer: Sometimes in [00:30:45] very, very few, we have closed down some business. We have merged business together with others. They understand. And so I think it is important to be transparent and to create some, some competition. Yes. Um, because when people see that other are performing better, yes. [00:31:00] They also want to do it.
Josua: Yes. I, I 100% believe in that. And I think that it’s so easy to come up with excuses, not not just to for others, but for yourself. Like, you know, when you look at your own circumstances and there’s a lot of reasons why things are difficult. Yeah. But when you see the hard, cold, hard
Christoffer: facts. Exactly. [00:31:15] Um, I’m always telling the organization in, in MLAs, no one else doesn’t.
Christoffer: Mm mm Uh, I was listening to a very interesting interview with Bar Obama and he said, uh, I can see two types of people. Ev all people can see the problems. [00:31:30] Everyone. I mean, I have, everyone can see this is, doesn’t work. And then you have the people saying, I will deal with the problem. And they do. And I try to foster culture, you know, I, I know about the problems.
Christoffer: I mean, I want people that are, you [00:31:45] know, it doesn’t matter if you’re hr, if you are finance, if you’re with dementia, if you’re mentioning deal with the problem.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Uh, I mean, that’s the kind of people I love and we have a lot of them in.
Josua: Yeah. It’s a must be a very good, exciting place to work when you have so many people who are [00:32:00] solutions focused
Christoffer: working together.
Christoffer: Yeah. It’s amazing. I have never been an organization Yeah. Where people are so solution oriented. Yeah. And they love to build. Yeah. And, and we are also, people are, it’s a really entrepreneurial, uh, culture. So we are, you know. Um, [00:32:15] we are not talking so much about, uh, work life balance. Uh, we are more, you know, we ha we have some kind of balance, but we are more living with the work.
Christoffer: Yes. We are more like, you know, if we are farmers or, you know mm-hmm. We are really living this, we, we, uh, we, we, we try to have a, we, [00:32:30] the managing directors, uh, all the management teams, we are owners of MLAs. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So we, we want to run, uh, we want the managers mm-hmm. To be, to have an ownership mentality mm-hmm.
Christoffer: To live with a company with, you know, uh, and we own different [00:32:45] parts. Mm-hmm. But, but management and managing directors, we own 30% of MLAs. Okay. Wow.
Josua: That’s a substantial, substantial amount. I, I just wanna quick, quickly go back to what you mentioned about the, the rankings and, and kind of transparency. What have you seen from [00:33:00] just, let’s say, just giving that kind of transparency and clarity to, to managing directors?
Josua: Have you seen some like major improvements, like one company being really at the bottom and then just, that just really drives them to Yes. Go all the way. Like, do you see these [00:33:15] crazy
Christoffer: shifts? Yeah. You do. Mm-hmm. And uh, so we have seen that, but I would say the most important is that we had a lot of companies in the middle.
Christoffer: I mean, we have, we have, if you take the amazing companies, I mean performing, you know, good year after year, after year, after year. It [00:33:30] doesn’t matter. You know, they, I mean, it’s amazing. I mean, they have leaders that are, you know, crazy. I mean, they’re so good, but what the biggest shift are the middle, the companies in the middle.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. They started to compete with each other. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. And I have seen some companies in the middle [00:33:45] going up to the top. And they’re really following. And, and we have, we have, every month we have a managing director conference or teams meeting. Mm-hmm. And if we miss to send out the ranking, we get emails like five minutes after because everyone is really reading it.
Christoffer: Yes. Yeah. And they are [00:34:00] comparing, they’re competing. Uh, and, and I hear, you know, when we, two times per year, we collect all the managing directors together and they’re really talking, where are you? What can I learn? Uh, and they’re really learning from each other. And, and then we also have, if you [00:34:15] are a managing director, you are part of a region.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. So in that region, we are talking a lot about, um, so, so if, for example, um. We have one company, they have taken down the cost a lot. Mm-hmm. Then they get the opportunity to work for everyone. Yes. What did you do? And then we [00:34:30] celebrate, or we have someone that have, you know, improved profit. I mean Yeah.
Christoffer: We celebrate, they describe.
Josua: Yes.
Christoffer: Uh, and, and we are, and I’m, I try to, when I was leading the Swedish operation mm-hmm. Before I took over the, the CEO for the whole group, I tried to, you [00:34:45] know, call the MDs that moved in the ranking, you know, and say, I’m, I’m seeing it. Yeah, I’m super happy. Continue.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Yeah. Uh, so I think it really
Josua: works. It’s interesting because you got the balance of, of kind of collaboration and [00:35:00] competition. The competition with the rankings, but collaboration in the sense that everyone is, owns a part of mlis. Yes. And it’s in everyone’s economic interest Exactly. To maximize the value of that.
Josua: Yeah. And what’s also happening
Christoffer: is that people in, in the second, you know, the, the, from the middle to the [00:35:15] top. Yes. They are calling me. Why don’t you deal with the bottom? I mean, so it’s also great. Like, you know, come on. I mean, you have to do something. They have been done now for six months.
Josua: Exactly. Right.
Josua: So they’re also kind of, the top leaders are incentivized to help the, the, the bottom companies. They are. Yeah. That’s really interesting. [00:35:30]
Christoffer: And then collaboration came in, in, if you have some, uh, other centrally driven companies, they, they try to, you know, foster collaboration by, you know, it’s mandatory. Yes.
Christoffer: But we have much more collaboration. Yeah. Because they, they’re owners. [00:35:45] Yeah. So I mean, if they have a company, they know this company have problems with work. But, uh, we have a company, you know, they try to help each other.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Uh, and they’re doing this managing di director to managing director. So we have a lot of collaboration between companies.
Christoffer: Mm. But not forth from the top.
Josua: Yeah. [00:36:00] I think
Christoffer: that’s,
Josua: getting that balanced right is probably difficult, but so effective. Yeah. When you, when you do, um, let’s talk a little bit about kind of culture and, and leadership in the organization. Um, one of the things that you’ve, you’ve highlighted a few times, [00:36:15] um, in, in other, uh, posts and, and, uh, things you put out is that leadership is about three things.
Josua: Setting the di direction, deciding which mountains to climb, and then kind of rallying or gathering the troops. Yeah. So can you go through each of those three and kind of, you know, explain [00:36:30] what it means to you in practice? Yeah. And why, why those, why you believe those three specifically are kind of the, the keys
Christoffer: to, to leadership.
Christoffer: Yeah. For me, leadership is both super simple and super hard, but I think the, uh, uh, the most important for me as a CEO for a large [00:36:45] company is to focus on what is really important. Because it’s so much that are important, but what is really important? So first, um, uh, set the direction. Where are we heading as a group?
Christoffer: Uh, I mean, we have now a new strategy for the group. [00:37:00] So we, we are, we have gone from 1.5 to 10 billion cec and, uh, the coming five years, we are going to at least 20 billion. So we are going to double the company size. Uh, we are going to enter two new markets. We went from Sweden to Finland to Norway, and we are going [00:37:15] to enter two new markets.
Christoffer: So that’s, and I, I think all the 5,000 people. Mm, I mean even if they work in the local company, they want to know what is the bigger goal? What am I part of? Mm. So I think it’s super clear. And you can also measure, so all the countries have targets now, what [00:37:30] they should achieve every year, becoming five years, we can measure.
Christoffer: So this is a target. And you should also be able to describe why is it important to be bigger? Mm-hmm. Why do we become a better company? And then the decide the amount is a climb. I think one problem. That, uh, a lot of companies [00:37:45] are doing, they have too many mountains to climb. Mm. So people don’t know what is important.
Christoffer: So to really decide what is the most important, what are we going to focus on? Is it profitability? What are we going to do in growth? What are we going to do? [00:38:00] Uh, and then operational capacity. So I mean, to focus on the most important. So we try to do that on group level. Mm-hmm. And then all the local companies also have what is their mountain as a climb?
Christoffer: And it can be very different in, in some cities it [00:38:15] could be about focus on the operational capacity to become more profitable. In some, it could be to growth in some, it’s to get more app parenthesis. Mm-hmm. So to have and, and to just have a few, 3, 4, 5, not more. Um. And then I think that, and everyone [00:38:30] can do number one.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: I have never been in an organization where people can’t say, this is the mission or mission or this is the target. Everyone can do that. You can do it in, you know, by Excel. I mean you can do it from the head office. Mm-hmm. Everyone knows what’s to do. I think the most important is to not take too many to [00:38:45] decide this is really the most important, but then to get, to make things happen.
Christoffer: And the, I mean, this is everything. It’s about rallying the troops and, and I am pushing something. I’m telling get the hell out of the office. I don’t think we can [00:39:00] build the Enos from the head office. Uh, I, I I, I, I’m telling my managers, I’m telling the organization, uh, presence is a, is an attitude.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Uh, in MLAs, we are not emailing each other. We talk to each other. We are [00:39:15] traveling, we are talking. You are part of the conversation where the conversation are. If we have a problem, we run towards the problem. Uh, if we have the region directors in, in, in, in the nims. When we have a problem in the local company, when they are calling me, [00:39:30] they can call me Christopher.
Christoffer: We have a problem in this company. Okay. And then they’re saying, I’m on it and I can hear, you know, that they are moving in, you know, they’re going into the car. Mm-hmm. And I watch my, I look at my watch, it’s six in the evening. Mm-hmm. They, I’m driving there noob [00:39:45] now, and then they drive to the company and then two, three, four days later they call me and say, this was the problem.
Christoffer: I have done this, and, uh, this is what we’re going to do going forward. They are not very good at putting it in a PowerPoint [00:40:00] presentation.
Josua: Hmm.
Christoffer: But they’re, and I think, you know, for me, I don’t care about that. I care about that I can, you know, deal with the problem and that they’re running towards the problem.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Uh, so I have decided to not build a big head office. I think too many companies are [00:40:15] creating too, you know, big head offices or the managers are in the head office far from the business.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: And they pretend to run the business. I think you run the business when you meet customers, when you meet people.
Christoffer: What we have tried, uh, tried to do is that we have people in [00:40:30] Sweden, in Norway and Finland working for, for, for MLAs. We also have people at the local companies working in central functions. So we have a, we have people in finance, in salaries. They are based in a local company. Mm-hmm. [00:40:45] But they’re working with a central function with many different companies.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. So we use the talent pool of, of the whole Nordics today. Uh, and I don’t want to have a big head office because when you start building that, uh, in my view, you, you lose some of the, you know, [00:41:00] um, the culture of having a decentralized organization. Uh, you also, you start believing that you add value, but you’re far from the business.
Christoffer: Uh, and I’m so afraid of where we have. So, so that, I would say, so rally the troops. It’s so much about [00:41:15] get the hell out of the office, don’t send a lot of emails, talk to the people. But also, uh, I’m, I’m telling everyone in nims. You get the trust that you deserve. Mm, I I hate when managers get, [00:41:30] uh, trust just because they have a lot of gold, you know, uh, or, you know, some time of position.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. I, I want in nim laws that everyone, the best argument should win and you should be part of the discussions. I, I only get trust as a CEO if I have [00:41:45] something to offer to the discussion or to the table. So I think that is so important. And, and so we are traveling all the time. I’m telling my, I’m telling my, uh, I’m telling my management team the CEOs of the, of the countries.
Christoffer: I think you should travel 50% at [00:42:00] least. Wow. Uh, you should be out there. It’s tough, but I think it’s necessary for if you are building a company. And when we are buying a company, uh, one lesson learned is when we are buying it, all meetings should be on site [00:42:15] with them before buying. So we are a lot of different people meeting them.
Christoffer: At the local company. And when we are integrating the company, a few years ago we tried to do it on teams. It doesn’t work. So now we move out to the local company. So when finance are [00:42:30] integrating, they are on site, hr, you know, uh, the, the, the CEO of the country, uh, everyone. So they go to the local company.
Christoffer: So we are traveling, traveling, traveling. And I’m telling them, uh, don’t send emails, talk to people.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: That’s how [00:42:45] we move the company. Mm-hmm. So get the hell out of the office and not build a big head office.
Josua: Hmm.
Christoffer: It creates costs, but also bureaucracy and you lose focus on what’s really important.
Christoffer: Yeah. And the most important in our business, it’s the local companies.
Josua: It is in really interesting, uh, [00:43:00] with the, with the head office that you said it has cost and loses focus, but you also hire people to run the company and think that they, who believe that they run, like you said, they believe they add value.
Josua: Yeah. And some of them probably in some capacity do, but there’s this risk, and I’ve seen it in companies and heard it from [00:43:15] people, that the people who are making decisions don’t actually know about the job. Exactly. They don’t, they don’t, they’ve never seen a project. Yeah. They’ve never talked to the actual people doing the job.
Josua: So they’ve never talked to customers either. Yes. And they’re making these decisions without having their feet on the ground. Yeah. And you’re not [00:43:30] gonna, I mean, to me it’s obvious that you’re not gonna make as good a decision as if you have the actual firsthand information.
Christoffer: Yeah. I was hoping when we had recession now that a lot of the big companies should take a lot of this away, but I don’t think they have done it [00:43:45] enough.
Christoffer: That’s from my perspective. Yeah. I think we have a situation right now in all nor all the three Nordic countries where we have added so many functions to the head. They’re creating policies. They, you know, they, they, they, and I think, you know, a [00:44:00] lot of very talented people, and I think they, they believe that they are helping the local companies.
Christoffer: But I have been out there, you know, leading construction, you know? Mm-hmm. And, uh, uh, in a big listed company. And many [00:44:15] times you feel that you are very alone. And then you have a lot, you, you, you don’t have time to be a manager. Yes. You don’t have time to develop your people. You don’t have time to work with customers.
Christoffer: You don’t have time to, to, to, to work with sustainability. [00:44:30] You are just reporting. Yes. Or you are just sending in documents to the head office. Mm-hmm. And I think we need to change this, and I think we need to celebrate the people that are doing the job. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The plumber, the electrician, the nurses.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. I can also see, I hear this from my, my mother. She’s a [00:44:45] leader in, uh, for elderly care. Mm-hmm. I mean, it’s the same. Mm-hmm. I mean, so I think we need, we need to, we need to, we need to look at each other. In the Nordic countries, we, we have, we have built amazing countries, but the bureaucracy has gone too far.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. And I think we have made academic [00:45:00] people a bit too important. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think we need to foster a culture where the heroes are the people that get the job done. Mm-hmm. And everything that we are doing in the head office should support the people that are doing the job, the nurses, the [00:45:15] teachers, the plumber, the electrician.
Christoffer: And then we have also the politicians because they’re adding so much bureaucracy. Mm. When I was in politics, I had been working in the government, I didn’t understand, you know, how big problems it is for business today. Mm-hmm. With the bureaucracy. If you take [00:45:30] CSRD for example, I really like the intention.
Christoffer: I be, I, I, I, I think the climate crisis is, you know, it’s huge. We need to do more, but the solution is not a bureaucracy.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: The solution is to, to innovation. Yes. The solution is for [00:45:45] us to make the buildings more sustainable. Yes. We will never do that with reporting. Yes. So we need, in Europe, in the Nordics, in the companies, we need to get rid of a lot of bureaucracy.
Christoffer: A lot. And we need because, and we need to start [00:46:00] celebrating the people that get the jobs done. Yeah.
Josua: I think it’s so true because, you know, let’s say with climate, there’s a, um, I think probably as a politician there’s a, a real kind of temptation to, to feel like, well, you know, our, the way we solve this is we have a target, we set a target, and then it’s gonna be [00:46:15] reached.
Josua: But actually, as with all things, it’s about engineering, it’s about innovation, it’s about the people actually do the job. Yeah. And, uh,
Christoffer: you know, and I think, as you said, we have a lot of people in the head office today
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: That don’t know that, that have, that don’t know how it works in, you know, in their operations.
Christoffer: But we [00:46:30] also have a lot of politicians in all three Nordic countries that actually have no experience from business. Mm-hmm.
Josua: They
Christoffer: have not experienced from, I mean, we have, we have. What I am seeing in all three countries is that we are starting to get a political class. Mm-hmm. They move into politics when they’re young and they stay there for the rest of [00:46:45] their life.
Christoffer: And I don’t think this was the, when we, when we create democracy. Yeah. Right. Uh, I thought, I mean, the idea was to have people with different experience. So I think we need to have more people from business in politics. I think we need to have more nurses, more teachers, more plumbers, more electricians.
Josua: Right. [00:47:00]
Christoffer: Uh, so, because I think they have the best of intentions.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. But they only, but they don’t, and they, they try to do good things. Right. But, uh, I can see now as a business leader, the bureaucracy with GDPR, with CSRD, with a lot of other things, it’s [00:47:15] crazy. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It’s even hard for us, a 10 billion company
Josua: mm-hmm.
Christoffer: To, you know, understand what the leg legislation.
Josua: Yeah.
Christoffer: I mean, and I mean, the most important for me is to grow, to be to, to, to, to create solutions that is better for [00:47:30] society, better for sustainability, but also to create more jobs. More jobs that create taxpayer money so we can pay, you know, the welfare, the polices, the, the defense.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. That should be the focus. Yes. And we should, I think I’m really impressed about the growth in Nim la [00:47:45] I think Sweden, Finland and Norway should focus more on growing in their economy. I mean, that’s the main problem. I mean, the economy is not growing, and I think to be able to solve the climate crisis, I think we need to have a much, much stronger economy.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Josua: Yeah. [00:48:00] Absolutely. Totally, totally agree. Um, one thing that you’ve highlighted, um, in your, or one thing that you’re kind of passionate about, and you kind of alluded to, is the fact that we’re, uh, prioritizing. We’re prioritizing, uh, academic [00:48:15] academics, academic credential, academic performance over, shall we say, practical jobs, blue collar jobs.
Josua: So, um, why do you think that is? And what is the, what are the consequences for that? And maybe, especially now with. Ai, which is creating a lot of uncertainty [00:48:30] in a lot of the, in the job market.
Christoffer: Yeah. I think this is super interesting and let’s start, let’s start with the Ninda perspective, and then we can go to the more broader society perspective.
Christoffer: Uh, what, what we are seeing is that, uh, we need a [00:48:45] lot of more skilled plumbers and electricians.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Uh, what we are seeing in, in the Nordics is that we need to train more people. We need to educate more people to become a plumber and electricians. So we need to do much, much more than today. Mm. Uh, and then we have some [00:49:00] difference between the countries, but overall, we have created a society.
Christoffer: I, I think academic, people in the government, academic people at, you know, uh, government agencies have created a society that fits very good for them and for their kids. [00:49:15] But the society we have created today is not fit for all practical skills people. I see, uh, that a lot of the practical skills people, they are not able to finish school.
Christoffer: They are not able to, to come in to become a plumber or [00:49:30] electrician. I, I can take my own dad. Mm. He’s a blue collar today in Sweden. He would never have been able to become a blue collar.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: Because he wouldn’t have had, had the grades. He have, you know, made money the whole life. He have five kids today. [00:49:45] Mm.
Christoffer: He’s an amazing dad. Amazing granddad. Uh, from a broadwater society perspective, I think, you know, we have a lot of people, uh, when I meet my employees, many are telling me I felt that I was stupid in school.
Josua: Mm-hmm. [00:50:00]
Christoffer: Stupid. They are amazing people. Really practical skills. But the schools today get them to feel that they are stupid or that they are useless.
Christoffer: And what we are seeing in a long term perspective, AI will completely [00:50:15] change the game for academic people. I think a lot of the bureaucracy, a lot of, you know, legal people, uh, finance, hr, AI will do a lot of changes here. Uh, I was listening to a very interesting interview with one of the Nobel Prize [00:50:30] winners Mm.
Christoffer: Uh, in ai, and he got the question, what is the best job to have the coming 10, 20 years? And he said, plumber, and I agree with him. So I think, you know what? We will see the coming 10, 20 years, uh, plumbers, electricians, the people that gets the job done will be [00:50:45] even more important. But we need to, we need to stop telling them that they are stupid.
Christoffer: And we need to understand that all this bureaucracy, that the government, that the European Union and the academic people in large [00:51:00] corporations are implementing, they’re forcing it out to the plumbers or electricians. Mm-hmm. So even today, when they are a plumber or electricians, it has become much, much more, you know, yes.
Christoffer: Bureaucracy in that job. And we need to, we need to change that. We need, [00:51:15] because, uh, they don’t like it. I don’t like it. And from a society perspective, if we don’t take care of super important people. I think we are creating a dangerous society. Mm-hmm. And I think we are moving in this direction with polarization, other things.
Christoffer: [00:51:30] So I think we need to change this. I think we need to understand that, uh, my, uh, my kids, I mean, they will probably, you know, go through school without problems. Mm-hmm. When I look at my sister and brother’s, kids that are more practical skills, uh, it’s tough for them today.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: But they [00:51:45] are amazing people.
Christoffer: And I think if we want to build a good society, I think we need to tell people that you are important. Mm. Even if you are theoretical skills. Or academic skills.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Josua: Um, do you think, uh, there’s a big, one, big contributing factor is that we placed [00:52:00] high status on certain types of, you know, let’s say academic jobs or knowledge worker.
Josua: Yes. And what role
Christoffer: then
Josua: does company I can also
Christoffer: get them tired of, you know, I think, you know, when I look at plumber electricians or nurses, or if you take a people working at the bank closest to the customers, [00:52:15] we, I mean, it’s a quite, it’s a tough job. Mm-hmm. And you are measuring them a lot. What they are performing, you know, they should have these kind of, uh, jobs per day, or you really make sure that they’re working eight hours per day.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. But then you have this, you know, bureaucracy staff, [00:52:30] academic staff people, uh, we are not measuring them in the same way. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They work more from home. I mean, it’s, it, it’s, I think we have created a society where we don’t measure people at the same way. Mm-hmm. We, I think also I can see that, you know, salaries increase, have been [00:52:45] higher for, you know, white collar stem blue colors.
Christoffer: I think we, we need to look at this. And I think we need to do some changes, but I think the most important is to, is to stop telling people that are super intelligent and that the society really needs Yes. That they are, uh, not [00:53:00] intelligent. We are seeing today, uh, I would say Sweden is worse here. Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: But the trend is the same also, that some of the people coming out from electricity school, for example, they want to work in an office. And I mean, I mean, we want people that wants [00:53:15] to do the practical work. So I think we need to make sure that they can go into the schools. Um, my sister, I have a, um, relative, relative that is a police and he’s telling me that we are educating people, telling I don’t want to work nights or evenings.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: You are [00:53:30] police. I mean, that’s when a crime is happening. So I think we need to change this. I mean, what is, what is nice? I think I have, when I was in school, I was celebrated because I had good grades. I mean, I think we need to start celebrating practical skills much, much more. Mm-hmm. And make those people more important.
Josua: [00:53:45] Yeah. And probably also give them a voice because, you know, if you think about, uh, the, the lockdowns, um, you, decisions were made by people who could very easily transition to working from home Exactly. On behalf of people whose jobs dependent on them being at the work site. So yeah, if these people don’t [00:54:00] have a, they make a, a huge percentage of the workforce and critical work, like you mentioned, being done, but they don’t necessarily have a voice in the decision making that affects them.
Christoffer: Yeah.
Josua: Um, how big do you think the problem is gonna be or, or already is now, and potentially it’s going to be the lack of this [00:54:15] type of, uh, specialized, um, practical labor? Like, is it gonna be a big, big, big issue? Yeah, huge.
Christoffer: Huge. The biggest problem for, for me and for the whole industry will be to have enough skilled people.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Because if, when you look at, uh, at our, [00:54:30] at, uh, Finland today, for example, you need to invest a lot in new buildings. That’s a lot of installation. Uh, you are investing a lot in the defense and a lot of other areas, but also all the buildings that are already built, uh, to, uh, I mean, uh, [00:54:45] 40% of the CO2 emission are from buildings, 10% to build the building and 30% to run the business, run the building, and to make buildings more, uh, energy efficiency and more sustainable.
Christoffer: It’s installation, installation, installation. So with, with the [00:55:00] regulations that the European Union already have decided about 75% of the buildings needs to do investments in ventilation, in solar panels, in battery storage. So, so we need to have much, much more skilled, um, blue collar plumber
Josua: [00:55:15] electricians.
Josua: So that’s probably one of the, the most secure job markets for the next couple of decades. Yes. I think we should all tell,
Christoffer: you know, yeah, my, my, my parents told me that, you know, you should get a real job. Yeah. And for them, it’s like a plumber electrician. I went to law school. Uh, but I, I, I think we should, [00:55:30] we need also theoretical and academic people.
Christoffer: I’m not against it, but, but we need to make sure that all skills people that we have in the countries make sure that they get a job.
Josua: Yeah.
Christoffer: Uh, a family, an income.
Josua: Yeah.
Christoffer: Uh, and, and I, I, I, I, I met the scientist and talked about [00:55:45] this, uh, and he told me, I, I don’t know if it’s true, but he told me that if you look at, um, men that are unemployed Mm.
Christoffer: It’s much, much harder for them to get a family.
Josua: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: If you, when they’re young, if you look at a woman that are unemployed, she still gets a family. Mm-hmm. If you look at the [00:56:00] percentage statistics, so I think from a society perspective. Uh, to get people included Yeah. To make sure that people have good lives.
Christoffer: It’s so important that people get a job Yes. And income. Uh, and, and that they’re part of the society.
Josua: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s a big, big [00:56:15] dif uh, big, uh, challenge there because women or girls tend to do better academically than boys. And so they, there’s a risk if this, if there’s like only one funnel they have to go through.
Josua: Yeah.
Josua: And there’s like a big percentage of, of young boys who don’t fit that. Yeah. And there’s a risk [00:56:30] of them
Josua: Yeah.
Josua: Not
Christoffer: being included. So I’m, I’m so proud of all the, you know, we have 5,000 employees Yeah. In MLAs. Most of them are, you know, plumbers, electricians, working with the ventilation and so on. Uh, they are amazing.
Christoffer: Uh, but I’m so sad that many of them are [00:56:45] telling me that. School was a disaster. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It was really tough. Uh, I don’t feel that the society really appreciates me. Uh, so I think we need to change that. But they are amazing. Yeah. And we have so many amazing people in, in all our three countries, so let’s just, you know, take care of them.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. [00:57:00] And let’s make sure that they can help us to create a more sustainable society. Yeah. More growth, more
Josua: jobs. Yeah. I think, you know, companies like NIMS are very successful and very vocal and kind of pushing for this as a big, big, um, big plays a big part [00:57:15] in, in maybe also in both like the, maybe the cultural, removing any stigma or maybe in kind of raising the status, but also then making sure that on a policy level there’s, yeah.
Josua: Um, I wanna go back to something you said before we, we wrap up, which is about, you are also like, you’re buying [00:57:30] companies, you’re buying a lot of companies. You bought 60 or so in the last few years, um, but you’re also starting companies. Yes. So what does that look like? ’cause that’s probably quite unique for a company at your group, at your scale to be doing so.
Christoffer: How does that work? Yeah, we are super proud of that. So we, uh, we are [00:57:45] doing startups in, in MLAs. Uh, so we find a talented person most of the time. Uh, the person is between 30 and 45 years in age. It can, I mean, it can be, but that’s the most typical. Mm-hmm. Um, he or she have experienced from one of the, our [00:58:00] competitors.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. Uh, they are hardworking. Uh, they, uh, they have been thinking about, uh, you know, like what, like when I, they have ideas how to run a business. Mm. More effective to be a better manager to, you know, to be a [00:58:15] better home for the best plumbers, best electricians, but maybe it’s for them. It’s a big, uh, shift to go from a big organization to be completely on your own.
Christoffer: So what we do is that we are creating a company together. So we are finding this [00:58:30] person, that person, uh, gets 30% of the company. We own 70%. We do business plan for three years. Um, uh, we make sure that they get our ERP systems, you know, we help them with cars, with [00:58:45] computers, with everything. We make the business plan.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: And, and then they start to work. Uh, and then we look at the year two and year three, and we look at the profitability, uh, and then we have a multiple, and then we buy them out, and then they invest in MLAs.
Josua: Mm-hmm. [00:59:00]
Christoffer: So it’s so, so it’s a way for us to, to grow organically, to compliment the buy and build.
Christoffer: But for me, it’s also a strange of our operational capacity.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: Everyone can buy companies. Mm-hmm.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Everyone can buy companies, but you [00:59:15] need to be a real company, a good company when you start companies, because then you need operational capacity. So for me it’s also, you know, it’s important to do to, to, you know, to, to build this operational capacity.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. But it also, it’s a very good compliment to buying companies. And, and [00:59:30] many of our successful companies today have started as a, we call it Greenfield. Mm-hmm. As a startup. Mm-hmm. In nims. So we, going forward, our plan is to increase this mm-hmm. And do it more going
Josua: forward. Oh, that’s super [00:59:45] interesting.
Josua: And probably like you said, I mean you have got, you’ve got this very ambitious growth target. Uh, you’re gonna go into new markets. Yes. But you need to grow in existing markets. And like you said, there’s probably, there’s only so many companies you can buy and then you’ve got big competitors with deep pockets as [01:00:00] well who are interested in buying them.
Josua: So you need to find additional ways to kind of
Christoffer: Yeah.
Josua: Um, that’s interesting this,
Christoffer: because it’s a lot of competition out there Yeah. To buy companies. Yeah. But it has never been so easy for us to buy companies as today. Okay. And that is because all the good ones, [01:00:15] it’s the same if you are looking for talented people.
Christoffer: All the good companies, all the good people have alternatives. Yeah. Today a lot of companies are choosing us because they think we are the winning team.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Because when people, if you sell your company to started 10, [01:00:30] 20, 30 years ago, let’s like part of the family, you want to sell it to the best.
Christoffer: Winning team. Mm-hmm. And today when we have proved that we have grown fastest, we have the best profitability, we have built a model that is, is working. And [01:00:45] when they see what kind of companies we are buying that we are only buying, you know, the good ones, then we attract more good ones. Mm-hmm. So, so the competition is high today, but we see that it’s much easier for us today.
Christoffer: We are choosing much, much more. We are saying no to much more companies today mm-hmm. Than a few [01:01:00] years ago. Uh, so, so people really wants to be part of the winning team. And then that’s why I think it’s so important to, to focus on, you know, profitability, growth, but also to focus on, to be number one because people love to be number one.
Christoffer: Uh, uh, and we are [01:01:15] pushing all our local companies to be number one. When my brother was finishing, uh, to be electrician in our hometown, he know which is the best electricity company in this town. And when you are, number one, you can choose the best customers, you can choose the best [01:01:30] employees. And when we are number one in the.
Christoffer: To buy companies, we can also choose the best ones. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it’s tough com. I mean, it’s tough for composition. It’s still a very unconsolidated markets. We still have a lot of potential, but, uh, it’s much easier for us today to buy companies.
Josua: Hmm, [01:01:45]
Josua: interesting. So it probably, I mean, all the hard work that’s been put in is starting to give some real pay, some real dividends and creates, creates a lot of momentum for, for the whole group going forward.
Josua: Yeah, I think so. Um, it’s really, really interesting. Um, I wanna ask a couple of kind of maybe shorter personal [01:02:00] questions here to, as we wrap up. Um, it, it seems to me just from talking to you now that you have a, a set of like very, um, very clear beliefs or principles about leadership or Hunter, how to run a business that you, [01:02:15] you, you, you believe very strongly in and, and seem to be working.
Josua: So where do those come from? And, and maybe would you say that you have, have you, do you have any, any kind of, uh, beliefs that are contrarian? So like, would it be kind of counter to best practice or something that you most peers, most of your [01:02:30] peers would disagree with?
Christoffer: I mean, I think a lot of my, my views are fostered from where I grew up in a small town in a blue collar family.
Christoffer: So I think as a leader, I always, you know, I always, you know, start thinking about how do we help, you know, the plumber [01:02:45] electricians to be better, the local companies. Hmm. Uh, and then what I have, what I have learned, it’s, it’s better to be clear and disagree than to be unclear and every, everyone agree.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. I think it’s, especially when you are [01:03:00] building a company mm-hmm. I think it’s so important to be crystal clear with principles. Uh, and for me it’s more important to have some principles about leadership that the organization knows about than to have, uh, you know, [01:03:15] hundreds of pages of policy documents.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. People know what’s Christopher’s principles are. Mm. They know what I care about. And, and that is not, uh, you know, that is not special for MLAs in all organizations. People can feel. [01:03:30] That What does the top management care about You? You feel that? Yes. And, and, and, and, and, and, and you and the culture is built on what you do, but also on what you’re not doing.
Christoffer: So I think, you know, for me it’s important to be crystal [01:03:45] clear. Mm-hmm. And, and, um, and I, I learned in politics, you don’t have to be loud by everyone. It’s okay. Mm-hmm. You know, I, I have debated with, I, I have a lot of friends, you know, that are social, you know, in different parties. [01:04:00] We are best friends, but we disagree on a lot.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: And, and I have also said to my organization that we have a culture in MLAs that isn’t for everyone, and that’s okay. Mm-hmm. I’m really tired of [01:04:15] this, uh, discussions that I can feel in other organizations. They think it’s, it’s the right leadership culture that fits everywhere. I think it can be different.
Christoffer: Uh, and I think different kind of people, uh, likes to work with in MLAs or maybe [01:04:30] some of the competitor, and that’s okay. But to be clear, and I think when you’re growing, you need to be crystal clear. So I, so I, I’m thinking a lot about my principles, I’m thinking a lot about my leadership, and then I try to, you know, I try to communicate, [01:04:45] I try to push, I try to stick with them mm-hmm.
Christoffer: And not change all the time.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: You, you want a leader that you know, you know, here, this is the, this is where we’re going, this is the plan. The road will be like this, but we will get there. And, you know, [01:05:00] this is the leadership in, in our company.
Josua: Hmm.
Josua: Uh, these principles is something that you, you know, you go, goes mean.
Josua: You mentioned that it comes kind of from your, your, where, how and where you grew up, but is there anything that you believed about business that, that you kind of recently had to change [01:05:15] your mind about and kind of long held beliefs? Speed. Speed. Okay. Talk about that.
Christoffer: I mean, uh, when I was, uh, first I was in government and then I was in, in Skanska and amazing, I think the government is, was amazing.
Christoffer: I think, you know, Skanska’s an amazing company. I’m so, I’m so happy about [01:05:30] my 10 years in Skanska. But what I really, you know, relearn is that you can be much, much, much, much faster. Hmm. Much faster than most people are thinking and much faster than most companies believe in. Uh, and, and, and my con, [01:05:45] and this is something I have learned when I started to build companies together with private equity.
Christoffer: Uh, I think we can build a quality company. Uh, you can do speed with quality, but speed is for me a mindset. And if you have good people. Uh, good [01:06:00] leaders in the management team or managing directors, they don’t need 100% of the information.
Josua: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: If they have 60%, 70%, it’s enough they can take the decision.
Christoffer: But I have seen so many organization, they get stuck in, uh, deep [01:06:15] dives. They get stuck in task force. They report, you know, 200, 300, 400 pages of documents, but you already know the what to do. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, after two weeks, but you continue for half a year. So I think speed is something that I [01:06:30] completely re uh, you know, I have changed my mind completely.
Christoffer: Mm. You can be much, much faster.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: And I think, you know, to be competitive going forward. As a company, as a country, I think you need to be [01:06:45] fast.
Josua: Hmm.
Christoffer: And I think we need to do more
Josua: here.
Christoffer: Hmm.
Josua: It it probably, like you mentioned like a lot of the, the work that’s done, the unnecessary work Yeah. Is done deep dives and studies after studies and reporting is done to cover your own ass.
Josua: Yeah. You know, everyone [01:07:00] wants to make sure that they’re not blamed if anything goes wrong. So having kind of maybe giving people that kind of like air cover Yes. Is probably really critical to, to yes.
Christoffer: Being, I’m telling my manager I will never fire you if you take the wrong decision, [01:07:15] but I will fire you if you, if not take decisions.
Christoffer: So I think it’s sometimes it’s better to take the call mm-hmm. And move on. I think it’s better to take 10 decisions that are eight are right. Then we can fix the two ones on the go. Or if we are building this, [01:07:30] you know, task force bureaucracy, we take four decisions. Mm-hmm. And they’re all 100%, right?
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, i, I think that’s, it’s, it’s, it’s better. And, uh, and then I, so, so speed, speed, speed, speed. Uh, and then, um, [01:07:45] um, you need people that are not tired. Uh, and most pe and I have seen some people that have been tired becoming, you know, less tired, uh, when they get a very clear, you know, assignment or when they [01:08:00] feel that they’re con contributing.
Josua: Mm.
Christoffer: But I think in an organization, speed is a mindset. Uh, and it’s not, I mean, I was a bit fostered that, you know, you have to choose between quality or speed. I don’t think you have to. And the other one is you need to, you, you can’t be too tired as a [01:08:15] leader, especially not if you’re building. I think if you are a managing director, if you are a regional director, if you’re a CEO of a country or CEO of a group, you can’t be super.
Christoffer: Uh, no one wants to lead a person that is tired. Mm-hmm. So I think, you [01:08:30] know, you need to make sure, uh, you can work hard, you can work super hard. I’m working super hard, but I, I also make sure that I, I do some workout. I, I need, I spend some time with my family because it, I think it’s so important that I don’t get tired.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. Uh, and, [01:08:45] and I have told my, my management team, if you get tired, you get fired. It’s a bit of a joke and not, uh, because I think, you know, to be able to build companies, you need to have energy. People wants to, people wants to follow people that have an idea. [01:09:00] But also when you’re building company, it’s so much, you need to roll up your sleeves.
Christoffer: You need to get the job done. Mm-hmm. And it’s so important that you’re not tired.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Josua: And yeah, this has huge implications for recruitment, for sales, for any type of partnership. I mean. [01:09:15] You, when you come in contact with a company, you see the people there. Yeah. You know, are they on fire for the, are they excited?
Josua: Exactly.
Christoffer: Or do they have, have they just, they’re just kind. And how fun is it when you go into a room and everyone is tired or you see problems? Yeah. It’s not very fun. And then amazing people bring in other amazing [01:09:30] people. I met MLA because of you and ra. Mm-hmm.
Josua: I
Christoffer: mean, our chairman, the former is CEO of Skanska, former 500, I mean Fortune 500 CEO.
Christoffer: He’s amazing. I’m here because of him. Tina, uh, the CEO in Finland, he’s also from Skanska. I mean, [01:09:45] so amazing people being out. I also see that with managing directors, if we have the best people as managing director, they bring in the best electricians, the best plumbers. Mm-hmm. The best electricians, the best plumbers.
Christoffer: When I’m asking them what was the most important, when you [01:10:00] choose where to work, they’re always telling, I want to work with the best people. I want to work at the best company. And when I ask them, what is the best local company, the best manager. They also talk profitability because they know if a company is not profitable, you don’t [01:10:15] get a new iPhone, you don’t get a new company car, you don’t get an education.
Christoffer: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, uh, and you can work with the best customers.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Christoffer: So I think this is to, to have the right, to have people with energy, really good people, they bring in other [01:10:30] really amazing people.
Josua: Mm-hmm.
Josua: I think that’s a really good way to end our, our conversation. So Christopher, thank you so much for coming on and, uh, I think kinda the principles we covered about growth, leadership, operational efficiency, or excellence, uh, I think probably [01:10:45] can be applied to any organization.
Josua: So I think, uh, listeners are really gonna appreciate it. And, uh, thank you so much for coming on and I wish you and, uh, the whole team at MLAs best of luck in reaching your 20 22 2 2, 2 22 vision. Um, really exciting to have companies [01:11:00] that set clear, bold, ambitious growth targets. And I hope you reach it.
Josua: I’m sure you will. So best of luck. Thank you very much.