Lessons learned from IPO and 125M€ VC fund

3 takeaways from the conversation with Tom Even Mortensen

1. Grit, timing, and curiosity beat any playbook

Tom’s first startup nearly failed multiple times before eventually going public. Looking back, he credits persistence and curiosity, not strategy, for survival. Great founders, he says, are those who “put themselves in enough situations so that when luck hits, they’re there.” Success rarely follows a linear path, and most defining moments come down to refusing to quit.

2. Climate investing is far from dead: it’s evolving

Despite headlines suggesting otherwise, Tom sees massive amounts of capital flowing into solutions around energy, resources, and sustainability. AI’s massive energy demand is accelerating the need for innovation: from localized renewables to next-generation nuclear. For venture capital, that means new models of collaboration between private and public funding, and an opportunity to back companies that do good and scale fast.

3. Robotics and AI will reshape everyday life

Humanoid robots are closer than most people think. According to Tom, we’ll start seeing the first generation in homes by 2026, the beginning of a transformation as big as the smartphone. As robots and AI move into the physical world, they’ll address major challenges like labor shortages and healthcare, but also raise new questions about how humans interact with technology.

Watch the episode:

Transcript

Josua: [00:00:00] So we are recording. Alright Tom, thank you so much for taking the time to come on, come on the podcast. Well great to be here. Thanks for having me. You have a really kind of, uh, [00:00:15] interesting and, and broad background. I mean, go being an operator and executive, uh, startup founder working with large, you know, private equity owned companies to now being on the investment side of things and, you know, very early stage venture capital investing.

Josua: So, [00:00:30] um, I’m really looking forward, forward to this conversation. I think we’re gonna touch upon a lot of interesting topics, business investing technology, but I’d love to start with, uh, with the company mx, which, uh, you were the founder of, [00:00:45] co-founder of and, uh, led that company to, uh, from founding to IPO, uh, on the, the stock market in Norway in just five years.

Josua: So can you kind of walk through that journey, how it came about, what that was like, and, uh, yeah, lessons learned. [00:01:00]

Tom: Well, yeah, I mean, that’s, um, over a little bit back in the days when being a founder wasn’t, wasn’t such a, a fashionable thing, but it’s, and it wasn’t really a, a playbook, but, um, no, the back of that is actually I’d already [00:01:15] worked, uh, a few years for, uh, a major corporate.

Tom: Uh, I’ve been, I was an energy trader already then back, uh, you know, used to taking risks and, and, and a lot of decisions without, you know, perfect information. Uh, and I [00:01:30] remember I, I was just leaving a company, uh, uh, because of, uh, there was, um, reorganization and I decided to take one of these packages that was there and my dad thought I was kind of crazy.

Tom: What should I leave a big corporate? And, and doing what? Uh, [00:01:45] and then I met up with this guy. He had this great idea and, uh, I thought, why not? I mean, I, I, uh, I wanted to try it. I, I didn’t really know what founding was all about, but, um, I had some knowledge about the industry and then [00:02:00] that was, uh, a five year journey first between, you know, getting established, getting the money.

Tom: Um, the fundraising part was just sort of something we, we did and, and, and, and did together. And we were through a couple of years of, [00:02:15] of uh, really sort of near death experiences, uh, taking the loan on the house and doing all of those sort of things. That might be a bit cliche, but it’s still, um, some of that experience that, that you have.

Tom: And, and the company was, [00:02:30] today would’ve been called a FinTech, but it was really, uh, a first mover in, in a new business in shipping and doing something for the first time. So this sort of. Going about creating a new segment, creating a market is, is really tough. Um, [00:02:45] I had no idea how tough it would be. Um, and we barely sort of broke a back a couple of times.

Tom: But, but then once you, you came out of that then, and you got the traction after two or three years, um, [00:03:00] you know, when you look back at it, you know, there’s a couple of moments when you know that there was a small difference between actually, uh, stopping and actually going through. Sometimes it was a bit coincident that a [00:03:15] customer responded positively.

Tom: Sometimes it, there’s a bit you don’t want to give up, but I can see that, you know, um, some of those moments probably not realizing before, after that. Those were, those were sort of defining moments [00:03:30] and, and actually I’m, I. Looking back at it when we succeeded, went public and, and, uh, we got a market cap of about 170 $80 million.

Tom: Uh, so at that time, I was successful. Uh, I don’t know if I [00:03:45] could have sort of at all described beforehand what it would take to get there. And, and my learnings was, um, probably more personal in terms of not giving up. Um, but um, it has [00:04:00] actually given me a little bit of that I, I guess, credibility later that I, I do feel that when I talk about these things to founders today, although things are very different, there are some generic things that you can take out from journeys like that.

Tom: And, uh, and uh, [00:04:15] yeah, and it, it was a great start. So I guess I was never meant to be a founder. I just happened to end up there and, and when it worked out, uh, maybe then that was, uh, inspiring for what came later.

Josua: A lot of, a lot of really interesting things. I’m thinking from [00:04:30] kind of personal level, you mentioned it was a lot tougher than you expected.

Josua: It was a lot of near death experiences. Do you think it was just a, I mean, probably a blessing in disguise that you didn’t know how tough it was gonna be ’cause you probably would not have started. But once [00:04:45] you were in that situation, do you think it was just kind of your, your personality to have that grit and tenacity or, or, um, yeah.

Josua: Do you think like, are there people who are just born to be entrepreneurs and to have that kind of grit and perseverance and risk taking? [00:05:00]

Tom: I, I think, um, maybe not born, but I do think there are people, and I see that when I meet founders today, there are people that have that, that sort of extra drive and, and also the determination and maybe sometimes the selfishness in a [00:05:15] certain way to sort of be preoccupied by something.

Tom: But I think you also, there’s a couple of things that I at least reflected upon. I had a great partner and, and we, we were complimentary. So when I was down, he was up and, and vice versa. And I could, [00:05:30] I could solve things and he could, uh, sell things and, and there we go. Uh, so, so I think this sort of having somebody around you that, that works, I, I think mentally.

Tom: Uh, it can be quite stressful. Um, uh, so [00:05:45] there is a certain grit and, and maybe there’s some stubbornness there too, but, but I, I, I’m very difficult to say whether there are people that are sort of from the start. Uh, I mean, maybe entrepreneurial, maybe being willing to take the first step, [00:06:00] sometimes not being so, you know, uh, depending on what other people say.

Tom: Those things, I think needs to be there. Um, and to a certain degree, a certain ego, um, a drive, a certain ego that, that you wanna succeed. [00:06:15] And that is, um, it, it’s mostly a positive thing. It can also sometimes be too much of those egos, but, but we see that in founders today that you are looking for that extra spark, something.

Tom: Um, but, but at the end of the day, [00:06:30] um, it’s just a lot of hours. I think you can never teach that in, in founder school today, uh, without saying that there’s just a shitload of work, um, at the end of the day. Uh, and, and that’s what I think most good [00:06:45] founders today realize that, that that’s what’s needed to succeed.

Josua: Absolutely. As I guess then you really need to also enjoy the process of building a company, taking risks, making mistakes, because otherwise, like you said, there’s just so much work and there’s, [00:07:00] everything takes so much longer than you expected. So even if you believe in this big successful outcome, it’s gonna be years and years away at best.

Tom: Yeah, for, for, in most instances, and, and obviously you see some cases today where companies [00:07:15] go from startup to a hundred million dollars in a r in two years. I think those are outliers and, and most of it. And, but then again, it, it doesn’t just sort of happen. Most people that do that they’ve, they, they have a reason [00:07:30] for being in that position, which is another thing I think, you know, when you look at why do people become founders?

Tom: I mean, it’s also, um, it’s, it’s about the personal drive, but also being able to put yourself in the right positions. Um, [00:07:45] sometimes it’s about, you know, coincidences, but most often, I mean, it’s this old saying that, uh, the harder you try to luck or get kind of thing, which you need to put yourself in enough situations in order to find that one that makes you succeed.

Tom: [00:08:00] And, and I think that is often the difference between. People over time that want to do this. They, they are, um, curious. They put themselves in situations, they inquire things and then they get into that, um, opportunity and then they’re [00:08:15] able to Yeah. Deliver.

Josua: Kind of related to that, I read recently something Mark Andreesen said, maybe it was a long time ago, but he said basically of Andreesen Horowitz, they said, he said they don’t invest in anything that doesn’t have come through a warm introduction.[00:08:30]

Josua: And the reason is obviously, I mean, it, it helps them save time, it reduces risk in a certain extent. But he said also, like the subtler thing is if you as a founder are not able to get to them, uh, through a warm introduction, it means you’re not able to navigate networks and put yourself in [00:08:45] positions and you’re not gonna be able to do that with employees, uh, customers, partners.

Josua: So it’s like a very negative signal if you’re not able to find a way to get through them.

Tom: Yeah. And, and in a way that’s their position of being able to. [00:09:00] They, they know that they get filtered through a lot of good, uh, opportunities. And, but I, I think it’s, um, it’s a good point and I, I think that goes in general, uh, that, you know, if you, if you are gonna get in those positions, so I mean, you, there’s no way you can predict anything, [00:09:15] uh, ahead in the future.

Tom: And, and if I tried, uh, back to try to say, where would I be sitting in 20 years? Just no way. So, but that means that, uh, that you have to put yourself in situations. And I think this sort of curiosity, [00:09:30] this sort of, uh, like you said, you know, being, uh, willing to maybe go out a bit on a risk and not knowing the answer, all of these things means that, uh, that you are, uh, let’s say more exposed and, and, and, and then maybe also have the [00:09:45] right timing because timing is not a planned thing.

Tom: Timing is also. Being, uh, in enough situation that it hits. Uh, and, and I think if you look back in life that, uh, there’s so many of these coincidences that have sort of formed [00:10:00] your life, and I think most people realize that when you look back and, and those are not, there are coincidences, but they’re also in a way, part of the design, uh, from what you do.

Josua: So after the MRX [00:10:15] journey, you held, uh, some senior, uh, executive leaderships at various companies. You were on the boards, uh, of companies. I guess you did some investing, but kind of the, uh, in 2021, you co-founded or founded San Sand Water, [00:10:30] the firm that you’re now the managing partner of. So I’d be really interested to hear what kind of the insight or the motivation was to starting that company.

Josua: And it was, I mean, 2021 was probably a, um, I mean a turbulent times, uh, [00:10:45] time in, in a lot of different ways. So what led you to, to start sand water?

Tom: Well then I, I, you need to allow me to take a little step back because after I, I did my founding journey and, and we took it public and I, I exited that company.

Tom: Uh, [00:11:00] then I actually, um, started working as a CEO for a tech company that was owned by private equity, a Swedish, uh, firm at the time. And, and that was a completely different experience. Then I was suddenly, uh, the CEO working with very sort of close, [00:11:15] uh, private owners, uh, scaling globally, different challenge, but at a lot of the same things, but later stage.

Tom: Um. That was a really fun journey. And then, and then we sold like company, uh, good exit. [00:11:30] And then I was thinking, well, now I’ve been on two sides of the table. I’ve been a founder, I’ve been on the CEO. And then I started working for the, the, the private equity guys and, and started doing angel investing. So I felt a bit that I was moving around the table.

Tom: Um, and I [00:11:45] was so lucky then to also, uh, to work with Summa Equity, which is a, a Swedish Norwegian, uh, impact fund, uh, with a very, very good purpose. And that’s kind of where, I guess, uh, the first time, this was back [00:12:00] in 2017, where the sort of idea of investing with sort of into, into, um, finding solutions for global challenges, uh, purposeful, meaningful investments.

Tom: That’s kind of where I got that. But, but it was later [00:12:15] stage and, and, uh, I think I just found that I, I, I meant to be earlier stage. That’s kind of where. I, I belong. And then, uh, seeing the venture market and, and investing into it as an angel. But then [00:12:30] again, you know, just feeling that capital could do so much more in an earlier stage.

Tom: So these sort of purposeful missions that sum equity had, why didn’t we sort of try to do that earlier? And, and that’s what led me to start Sound Watcher. And a little bit [00:12:45] coincidence again, that the timing, uh, you could argue that I was almost, um, at the peak of the market. Um, but um, but we managed to raise our first fund, uh, in 2022 of a hundred, uh, 25 million euros, uh, with the [00:13:00] purpose of investing into solu, uh, solutions, back solutions that, that do good, um, in energy, in resources, in health, in, in sort of, uh, productivity.

Tom: Um, and that’s, that’s been a exciting journey. Now we’re investing [00:13:15] in, uh. Companies that are just coming into the commercialization phase. So it’s more about scaling than, uh, than the sort of very, very early, but trying also to take some of those experience having been a [00:13:30] little bit around the table, but also take a little bit of those experience.

Tom: What, what does a founder and a team and a company need to grow and, and become successful to scale? Because you could argue there’s a lot of good solutions out there that, [00:13:45] um, don’t impact because they’re not big enough. And, and if you don’t get to scale, you know, you can say that you haven’t really achieved the sort of impact that you can.

Tom: And that’s really our mission. And, and then we, [00:14:00] we like to think that there are learnings from later stage that you can apply and prepare a young company from. What do you need to get to in order for you to get through the next journey? And to the nest investors, sorry. Um. Then really [00:14:15] scale, and that’s the space that we’re, uh, operating

Josua: in.

Josua: That’s super exciting. And I, I’m guessing, you know, 125 million euro first time VC fund is very sizable fund in a Nordic context. Uh, at least here, here in Finland, I think the first time [00:14:30] funds are, funds are typically much smaller than that. So congratulations. Well, yeah, well

Tom: maybe I was just, uh, too old to not go for it right away because I, I just felt that, you know, I have so much time left and this is a, a good [00:14:45] opportunity.

Tom: So, but, but it’s also from a serious side. I, I think also we felt that there is a spot in the Nordic market where. Capital, little bit la, larger capital checks, uh, and, and supporting sort of deep tech hardware, [00:15:00] software combo companies that require sometimes a bit more capital. And also being able to, uh, to scale.

Tom: I, I think we found that there was an opportunity there. There’s a little bit of a wide space, I would say across the Nordics, that, that there are, there should be more capital, uh, [00:15:15] available for those, those stages. There’s a lot of capital available earlier. I think also generally for software. I think the hardware, software combos, uh, little bit more sort of, um, science-based cases.

Tom: That is a market where I [00:15:30] think there are opportunities for slightly larger, uh, funds in that still in the, in the venture space. And I guess that’s the area we’re trying to cover.

Josua: Okay. Um, I want to talk about, kind of touch upon a few of the areas that you’re actively investing [00:15:45] in and thinking about one of them being climate investing.

Josua: And, you know, just read from, just remind me from someone who doesn’t. Who’s not actively involved in the VC space, just reading the headlines and the papers. Um, one, one gets the sense that everything [00:16:00] that has to do with, with the green energy transition, whether it’s EVs or or anything else, has kind of been put on pause and can’t be prioritized at this moment.

Josua: So what’s your perspective? I’m, I’m thinking especially, I mean, it’s so interesting because of your energy [00:16:15] trading background and you’re working with these, these PE companies and, and thinking about seeing kinda the big scale, the maturity of the side of things, and then also now being focused on the very small, but very innovative.

Josua: So I’d love to hear your perspectives on climate investing and kind of, its, [00:16:30] its future. I mean, I guess everyone agrees that yes, long term, uh, we’re going to transition to renewables, but like what does the next couple years look like?

Tom: Hmm. Well, I, I think take a step back. I think, um. Venture it, it has always been [00:16:45] challenging with some of these larger energy plays because they require, in a certain transition, quite a lot of capital.

Tom: So I think the, um, and also we’ve seen, to be honest, in the last three or four years, a lot of these sort of green plays have not succeeded. [00:17:00] The, there, there was a lot of companies coming to market, even the public markets, and they’ve been di disappointments. I think maybe because underestimating, uh, some of the challenges to go from a pilot to a first plant and then to scale.

Tom: Uh, so [00:17:15] it’s typically not the easiest, uh, venture capital play. Um, and, and also, um. It’s no, no doubt that the political headlines, uh, probably rightfully so in some areas, but also a lot from our [00:17:30] France in the west, our big, uh, brother in the West, that they have sort of, uh, kind of put a, a big rev, uh, reversal from the, the policies of the pre previous administration.

Tom: So from the sort of top headlines, it looks pretty blue, [00:17:45] but if you, if you go under the surface, I was just in, um, in New York, uh, two weeks ago on something called New York Climate Week that brings together a lot of the world’s, uh, investors, uh, within the sort of areas of climate positive things. [00:18:00] I, I think you go back there and you say, wow, there’s still a lot of capital moving in this space.

Tom: There’s still a lot of solutions, and, and the reason is that maybe the narrative on the sort of climate investing has changed a bit. People are, are [00:18:15] wrapping it up a little bit differently, but the same solutions is required. If you look at. If you look at the big, uh, AI drive right now, if you start thinking about how much energy that needs to be produced in order to [00:18:30] supply the AI computing power, it is massive.

Tom: It is almost scary how big it is. Uh, there’s so many of these data centers has to be open every week and most of it will have to come currently [00:18:45] from fo from fossil fueled sort of sources. But we’re all need to get sort of these sort of renewable energy sources in. If not, then, uh, it will drive out the energy prices for the consumers and, and already in [00:19:00] certain areas you can see that the energy drive for AI has led local communities in the us.

Tom: To start resisting. So of course we need to come up with something new so we can’t rely on fossil fuel. So I think that means more [00:19:15] optimization of, of the grids and, and more sort of localized, uh, wind and solar we combine with storage solutions. It is definitely within the nuclear fi infusion. Uh, I mean there’s, um, a great company here in Sweden, [00:19:30] uh, called Blue Collar, which is sort of seen as most of the most promising, uh, sort of nuclear companies that eventually would end up hopefully supplying data centers and others with localized, you know, uh, nuclear [00:19:45] module or, or, uh, sort of, uh, modular, uh, solution.

Tom: So. There’s so much to invest in. Um, so you can’t have both you, if you wanna drive forward the world with all the AI and all that, you need to pro create the energy [00:20:00] sources. So I think there’s a lot of opportunities there. Um, and I got really sort of, um, I came back from to the office and said, guys, I mean, wow, if we just really think about what opportunities these are.

Tom: And, and also I think [00:20:15] also when you add the political dimension around, for instance, in Europe. Now we’re talking much more autonomy. People want to have their localized energy so it’s not imported energy, but localized. What does that mean? Well, we need to build it around resource that we [00:20:30] have here that is using anything from organic waste, converting into energy to, like, I just touched on the nuclear, but also making sure that the energy systems can provide, uh, autonomous solutions also for [00:20:45] industries here.

Tom: So I think this is an opportunity, um, uh, that that is great Also for VCs. We just need to find the model that, that we can support from a sort of a capital point of view. Um, and, and that is [00:21:00] maybe the challenge that some of the, the venture businesses going through, how to maneuver with getting those great solutions up and, and, and forward at the same time.

Tom: How do we finance it? And, and maybe this is where, uh, we need [00:21:15] a smarter mix between private capital. Public capital and other kinds of capital sources to, to make this happen.

Josua: Yeah. ’cause I’m guessing it seems like there could maybe be a rollback of some of the public, um, public kind [00:21:30] of incentives and subsidies in, in, you know, depending on things developed.

Josua: Uh, there’s a graph that I’ve seen a few times, which shows kind of, I think, electricity production in the US compared to China and China just completely eclipsing the US in last decade or so. [00:21:45] And, you know, the message being like, if, if the US is gonna be the leader in ai, they need to massively ramp up production.

Josua: Um, I haven’t seen those stats for, for Europe, but, but so you’re kind of saying you’re, you’re confident that, that we can meet [00:22:00] these energy needs that are required, um, by focusing or doubling down on innovation across, you know.

Tom: Well, uh, yeah, my point is that yeah, I, I do think it’s gonna be a challenge because I, but I, my point is that the [00:22:15] headlines, the political headlines, they don’t match up with reality.

Tom: I see. And I think reality will, will sort of, uh, win, because I mean, gravity works always in the end. So you can sort of say, we’re not gonna do renewables like, you know, the administration saying, [00:22:30] but when the equation does add up, you know, gravity will work. Because once the US uh, consumer gets high energy prices because they don’t wanna invest in, in renewables, then you have to invest renewables.

Tom: So that’s my [00:22:45] point. I, I’m more optimistic on, on the reality side, uh, than listening to all the politics. That’s why I think when you look beyond the narrative, there’s a lot of things that needs to happen. Making all those solutions profitable and scalable is [00:23:00] still gonna be a big challenge. And, and, and, uh, the jury is still out.

Tom: How this equation will end up, uh, because of the huge amount of AI that just a few years ago wasn’t really that visible. And now [00:23:15] everybody’s sort of, you can see tech companies becoming, I, I think tech companies like the big ones, they will become energy companies because they need to have their energy secured in order to drive forward their tech [00:23:30] agenda.

Tom: So there are gonna be some big shifts, uh, in this market, but, but at the end of the day, there’s a lot of capital coming. And then I do believe that, that there will be sort of a, a need, but also funding for, for some of these new solutions.

Josua: [00:23:45] Okay. Got it. Well, that, that sounds very comforting because like if the economic reality is what it is, uh, then that’s gonna, I mean, then like I said, narrative of politics will kind of have to yield.

Josua: To that at some point. Um, another area that you’re [00:24:00] investing in and, you know, actively thinking about is robotics. So, uh, please, can you please talk about that and my kind of most interesting, or my, my, yeah. The most, uh, the thing that I find most interesting about that space is the question of like, when are we gonna see [00:24:15] robots really redefining our, like, we’re gonna see, I mean, we see some of these, um, Starship robots that are delivering.

Josua: Um, there’s all kinds of cool demos, some demos that are pretty scary. Yeah. Um, but like, how close are [00:24:30] we to like seeing AI and autonom, like autonomous robots, like really kind of having an impact?

Tom: Um. I, I, you know, a background, uh, we have invested in one of these companies and, and we’ve been [00:24:45] following that journey for the last three years.

Tom: Uh, it’s a company called one X and they actually come from Norway. So this is one of the things that Norway can be proud of outside, uh, oil and gas and all these other things. Um, but, but the point is, I, I think the founder there, uh, burnt. Uh, [00:25:00] he’s an amazing guy and, but he’s also quite, uh, realistic. He, you know, because the robots now are already, they will be launched in, uh, and there are several companies doing the same thing.

Tom: They’ll basically be launched in people’s houses in [00:25:15] 2026 in the us. So, but they will be first generation. Uh, they will do things that looks very impressive, autonomous things, but of course they will still be, it’s like self-driving cars. It took some years before [00:25:30] they actually work a hundred percent on their own.

Tom: And, and, and he’s saying that will still be the case. And the reason is that. These robots are physically capable of doing a lot of things, but the, the connection, the data models that they need [00:25:45] to, uh, develop, uh, needs, they are not the sort of traditional language models that we are using, but they’re gonna be what they call world models that are, uh, more like 3D type models where you have to work with real [00:26:00] data from, from physical, uh, en environments.

Tom: And that will take some time to generate this sort of, um, learning over time that actually makes the robots, uh, operate and be, uh, smooth between people and, and [00:26:15] all the environmental sort of, you know, just operating around the house. So, so that will take, uh, some time if it’s. You know, three years, five years, I don’t know.

Tom: But, but it’s probably gonna happen. Uh, it takes a, you’re probably gonna happen a bit slower in the beginning when, [00:26:30] when you’re impatient. But then once the data aggregates and the, the models learn from each other because when, if you put a hundred robots out, then the one robot learn something that is spread to everybody, so you could sort of, it [00:26:45] multiplies.

Tom: So, so I think, um, it will still take some years, but it’s actually happening. And I, I’ve seen purely autonomous, um, things happening and it’s like peeking into the future. It’s really both impressive and scary at [00:27:00] the same time. But I think, um, uh, people are saying that this might become one of the bigger markets in the world.

Tom: Uh, even Elon Musk is saying that, uh, that their robot, um, [00:27:15] the optimist, uh, might be the biggest opportunity ever for Tesla. So there are a lot of hopes there, but, but I also wanna be patiently impatient, if you see what I mean, uh, about these things.

Josua: What do you think, I mean, [00:27:30] are you looking mostly at kind of the, you know, humanoid robot, the consumer kind of interface?

Josua: Or are you also investing to thinking about what, you know, AI plus advanced robots are gonna do, um, in industry and just kind of behind the scenes? [00:27:45]

Tom: I, I think, uh. The reason why this robotic company and others are putting these robots into, uh, interfacing with people are because that’s the most challenging environment you can be in.

Tom: Uh, I think obviously this [00:28:00] robot also will have industrial applications. It will be operating in hospitals, security. There’s a lot of call it industrial applications. But the reason why. People wanna put ’em into, and you see several other companies doing the same. It’s because of the data, [00:28:15] uh, uh, and, and then the adaptability, uh, to humans is, is the best training ground.

Tom: Uh, but of course the, these are already now, uh, in play in, in a lot of industrial uses. We, we, uh, we also see that, um, [00:28:30] there are other ways of combining, uh, robotics and ai, for instance. Um, another company we’ve been working with as an example, is in the logistical space where they’ve created this autonomous skids like.

Tom: Taking away the forklifts and have [00:28:45] autonomous skids that can run, uh, two or 10 together and they can operate, uh, and then they, they’re using smart. It’s the same idea that, that you are creating a, uh, sort of a physical world, uh, model with, uh, [00:29:00] uh, a good sort of robotics, uh, hardware tool. Um, I think a lot of these things for us, there’s a lot of exciting things going on in AI these days.

Tom: I mean, I’m sitting now in Stockholm. I mean, this is like almost European capital of, of [00:29:15] AI driven, uh, companies these days. But, but we think also that this sort of physical AI connection is really interesting. Um, it opens up for a lot of new, uh, applications.[00:29:30]

Josua: Uh, this going, kind of going on a little bit of a tangent, but, you know, given the demographic challenges that we have in the west or in, in any kind of developed, developed country. Do you think like robotics are actually, are gonna have a huge, um, [00:29:45] have, have a, be a huge factor in that? I mean, you mentioned in hospital work and care and so forth, like, are we, are we potentially that close to, to seeing those kind of rolled out and, and helping us, so yeah, helping us from like this slow moving disaster that everyone.

Josua: Can [00:30:00] see coming.

Tom: Uh, you know, you, you can take this in two ways because there could be some that are saying, oh, are we now replacing, are we not taking a lot of jobs away from people? And I’m sure there the, that will happen in certain areas. I mean, I, [00:30:15] um, again, if you go to San Francisco, it’s equally easy now to order a Waymo, which is the, you know, self-driving car on the same app as Uber.

Tom: And actually the Waymo is safer, statistically much safer. And it’s the same service and it [00:30:30] cost about the same. So then you can argue, why should you choose an Uber? Uh, if you can, uh, do a safer car and it’s, you’re alone in your car, you can play your own music, right? So, um, uh, but it’s, so it will take some [00:30:45] jobs away, but it will open up for others.

Tom: Uh, and it will also address, uh, certain labor shortages that, uh. That you will see in, I mean, just in the Scandinavian countries, you know, it’s predicted that the labor shortage within certain, let’s say [00:31:00] health and other areas are gonna be massive the next. So you could also argue that it addresses some of those, uh, societal, uh, challenges.

Tom: But I do think also we need to think about the robotics and, and since we’re on the topic of [00:31:15] humanoids, I think this will open up for. It’s like a new interface. It’s like when, when, when internet came and then the iPhone came. I think when everybody saw the first iPhone, we were thinking, oh, what a great, you can scroll and you can take pictures.

Tom: But [00:31:30] nobody realized in the beginning what it would change of dynamics in society, how you will act with others, how you will shop, how you will, uh, get entertainment and whatever that, that sort of changed over a certain years. So I think the [00:31:45] humanoid thing could actually be another one of these big, big changes.

Tom: You know, will we sit in the morning, talk to our, you know, our sort of friend Neil, uh, and then, and then talk about what to do and how you know [00:32:00] that that sort of robot can help you and things that they, and then that is the interface of the world. Uh, all your sort of shopping, all your things could happen in a different channel.

Tom: So I think we need to also think how will this. Opportunity of robotics [00:32:15] and, and smartness. How can I change the way that we both, you know, can use our time efficiently on other things, but also can, can interface with the world. It’s both scary and exciting at the same time, and I really hope that we’re gonna [00:32:30] stay enough along with this thing to really see what the effect is because I, I think it can be, uh, mind boggling when you start to think about the opportunities here as well.

Josua: Totally. And, and to your point, I mean, it feels like whenever there’s the big new technology or platform shift, [00:32:45] I mean, not even the smartest, most well-read, kind of knowledgeable people are able to predict these effects and how it’s gonna like play out. Hmm. I I wanna double tap on that just a little bit.

Josua: Given that you are investing, uh, early stage [00:33:00] companies, how much of your kind of investing in time is thinking about these big themes and trying to think about like these second, third, fourth order effects? What new markets and demands are gonna be created, and then trying to find companies in those spaces versus [00:33:15] just, I wanna meet really, uh, as many smart, hungry, entrepreneur, uh, entrepreneurial teams as possible.

Josua: Like how much of it is kind of pe maybe like the, the kind of PE approach would be more thematic versus just like people based smart, hungry entrepreneurs. Yeah. [00:33:30]

Tom: I, I wish I could say, um, truly that, you know, it was more of the first thinking about what the big themes are and then going out. I do think that we, we do have some of those filters.

Tom: We, we have obviously defined certain areas we like and [00:33:45] things that gives us personal energy and think we might continue with, but at the end of the day, it’s very often also, you know, meeting people, getting referrals like we talked about earlier, and then getting excited about somebody because there’s so many.

Tom: There’s so [00:34:00] many new solutions that are coming up, things that people have thought out that I haven’t thought about. And, and, but then when you connect the dots and you get it explained and somebody has the energy, then you get excited about it. So I, I think the, the best things are [00:34:15] those that are just coming, you know, and you don’t see it coming.

Tom: Uh, uh, and several of our companies that we’ve invested in have been just those slightly random introductions, maybe somebody referring, and then you meet somebody and you, [00:34:30] it just connects the dots. Um, I mean, we have another company, which sometimes things are so intuitive and you think like, why haven’t I thought about this before?

Tom: And that’s a company winning the ag tech space. And, and again, it’s this hardware [00:34:45] software where, where somebody’s made this sort of smart little color that you can put around livestock like your, uh, your cows and your goats and whatever. And it creates this virtual fence. Meaning that you can, you can have your cows going on a farm [00:35:00] and you don’t need physical fences because of sound and, and some stimulation.

Tom: And then suddenly, you know, you enable a farmer to do so. And it’s like, wow, whenever somebody explains that to you, you should get it right away. And it’s like, wow, can, can this really scale and, and [00:35:15] do these founders have it? And once you get through with that, it’s like the most obvious thing. But I didn’t see it coming before it was in front of me.

Tom: So, uh, but I think the, um, from a personal point of view, you need to little bit have that [00:35:30] curiosity and you need to allow yourself to be excited because, uh, I think venture investing, although we are doing all the work, we’re doing the DD and all that stuff, but you need to start with some excitement.

Tom: There needs to be something that says, wow, [00:35:45] think of if this could actually get out there, think if this could actually get down in cost or this could out. That’s gonna be exciting. And, and that is great. You need to start with the, the excitement and, and the sort of, uh, conviction part. And then you can test it [00:36:00] and, and check it out.

Tom: But then, you know, that’s what drives you as a venture investor, I think.

Josua: Hmm. Was there a shift in your experience going from PE where maybe the focus more on what can go wrong, making sure your downside is limited and identified [00:36:15] to now vc, where to your point, like you, you have to be asking what could go right, because obviously new company, I mean, there’s so many things, there’s so many reasons why it could fail.

Josua: Everyone could see those reasons. So was that like a mindset shift you had to go through? [00:36:30]

Tom: Um, actually, and not to be honest, I, maybe that’s why I never, you know, stuck in p uh, PE for long because I, I think. Exactly. Part of that is, is why I like it much better in the early stage. Uh, [00:36:45] also why I started early in doing this angel investing, which is a little bit of a lottery.

Tom: Uh, uh, but still you need to, you need to believe quite early, uh, and need to assume a lot of risk. But, but I, I do think you’re right that, uh, [00:37:00] uh, you, you need to have this sort of optimistic, pragmatic, um, but also sort of, uh, uh, willingness to, to, to think big with the founder. But it’s, it’s also important to, to put some filters and, and [00:37:15] make, because if I look at the stats, for instance.

Tom: We, in the last few years, we might have looked at a couple of thousand companies and, and these are qualified companies that, that are, you know, have a lot of good things, but we end up investing in, in, you know, three, four a [00:37:30] year. Um, so, so obviously for many, many reasons, um, not only because of the companies, but also because of our, that, that most companies, uh, we, that we look at, um, uh, we don’t invest in.

Tom: So [00:37:45] there needs to be filters and other things that you put on it. But I, I do think over time, if you can’t get into work and, and sort of generally, uh, get excited about things and, and like you said, don’t first look at what can go [00:38:00] wrong, but sort of ask what can go good and, and how does that happen and what does it take to go good.

Tom: Uh, I don’t think you can, um, you know, survive very long in the venture business, uh, to be honest. So that, that needs to be [00:38:15] a little bit there. And then again, you know, the other thing is that the, the founder that you’re talking to, uh, needs to be excited, uh, uh, about what you are saying, how you can help, because this is kinda like in marriage, right?

Tom: I mean, it’s [00:38:30] a long-term relationship and you need to sort of find out how you can, uh, work together over time. So it needs to be some, some connection there that, that, uh, that, um, that brings energy to the whole relationship.

Josua: For sure. I guess [00:38:45] there the, the energy test of like, after you’ve met a person, you have more or less energy after, after the meeting.

Josua: Um, exactly. You need to have. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, third kind of big, big theme that I’m, I’m thinking, I’m guessing, or [00:39:00] I know you’re thinking about is Europe and obviously, you know, in an early stage kind of venture innovation startup context, but, but maybe also more broadly like the role of, of Europe.

Josua: And I’ll just, um, I’ll just set you up [00:39:15] with this. Uh, I had a, I was talking with a, you know, major VC investor in Finland and he had been to a conference in, um, in, in the Middle East. And his kind of takeaway was the perspective of the people in the Middle East were, you know, the US is important, [00:39:30] obviously lots of capital, lots of tech, we need them for security.

Josua: China is important. It’s a big market. It’s a big supplier for, you know, for everything that we need. Um, Europe is. Not really interesting. I mean, if they come here as tourists and spend money, that’s nice, but we don’t [00:39:45] really care. So there is, if you’re, you know, if you’re consuming content, um, there is definitely this, uh, narrative that Europe is uninvestible.

Josua: And you look at the companies, the, the biggest market [00:40:00] companies in European countries, it’s typically old companies in France. You have the luxury companies and you have some big industrial companies in Germany. If you look in the us the biggest market, uh, market cap companies are, are, are tech, tech companies.

Josua: So what’s [00:40:15] your kind of thought on Europe and our place in the world as it relates to innovation and technology?

Tom: First to start with the little bit of the conclusion. I think Europe, relatively speaking, has become more interesting in the [00:40:30] last few years. Um, having said that, though, I think it’s easy to take the narrative, which I think is true, that, you know, we are fragmented market, there are regulations and, and it’s not so easy to scale as fast and the venture capital [00:40:45] business that are supporting these sort of tech growth, uh, companies have traditionally been in the US and, and obviously still are.

Tom: Um, so, so there’s a lot of reasons and if you look at the stats, uh, how many European companies are in the top sort of, you know. [00:41:00] There is obviously gravity to the, to the point that, um, that Europe is, is lagging in particularly in this, some of the scaling that that is needed for, uh, younger tech companies.

Tom: Having said that though, I [00:41:15] think there are, there are some, some good signs. I think first of all, if you just look at some of the other stats, like unicorn stats for instance, in, in, in Sweden, uh, is showing extremely good stats versus even in the [00:41:30] US and Silicon Valley. So there are some, some pockets of, of stats that are showing The innovation is quite high in Europe.

Tom: Uh, I think also the, um, the deep tech and the science based, uh, and I think generally the society and, [00:41:45] and the sort of level of, uh, uh, standards of founders and, and technical sort of, uh, uh, generation is, is very strong in Europe. Um, I do think also the venture business of Europe has been growing up. That has obviously happened over time.

Tom: [00:42:00] Uh, and, and more and more. You see now exciting companies come outta Europe that US investors are coming here to invest in. And also the latest, maybe the la last few years where. Europe, more and more needs to take care of themselves and there’s a [00:42:15] drive into more autonomy and we want to, you know, develop things here and, and resilience around all kinds of solutions, including defense and, and energy system and what have you.

Tom: I think also it’s been become relatively more [00:42:30] interesting to invest here. Um, and also with the latest political situation, I would say that some European founders are saying maybe, maybe I don’t have to go to the us. Uh, I was, um, last week, uh, uh, as I said, I was in San Francisco and there [00:42:45] were some Swedish, um, very successful founders that said, listen, I wanna grow my company in, in the, in Europe.

Tom: I don’t have to go to, to the US to scale my company. And they’ve been getting US investors, uh, in their caps stack. [00:43:00] So, so my point is that I, I do think there are. Uh, signs that Europe, relatively speaking, uh, is more attractive. Uh, you can never, you can never take out the fact that the US is one market, the more capitalists strong.

Tom: So that will always [00:43:15] be there. But I think on a relative base, so I’m, I’m actually quite happy that I’m European based, uh, investing in Northern Europe these days because I, I do feel that there is actually a little bit of a shift in a positive way. Uh, so again, I’m, [00:43:30] uh, I take the positive spin on Europe.

Josua: That’s really good to hear as a European, and I think especially interesting, you know, maybe both the, the big kind of macro, macro trends around resilience, like you said, can influence the culture. [00:43:45] Uh, probably and, and probably also like we have digital tools that now make it possible, uh, or even, even more possible, even easier to run these companies, global companies out of Europe.

Tom: Uh, yeah, and you can also argue that, I mean, listen today. [00:44:00] A founder can come in a and drive up a company and with the access and, and the outreach that is, uh, uh, as possible today you can sit in Stockholm or in Norway and you can reach out to investors all around the world [00:44:15] directly. So, so the, and also to customers.

Tom: So I, I think, uh, I think the global access is there. Um, uh, so, so I, I think the opportunities for new founders today to really scale a company if it is in Europe, or if they, they [00:44:30] wanna go to US or other markets, has never been better. So technology supports it. Uh, the transparency in, in, in, in society, trans, uh, supported.

Tom: So, so from a sort of a, coming up with a great idea, [00:44:45] uh, with the grit and, and all the things that we discussed earlier, uh, the capital markets are available for you, uh, if you’re successful, and, and the, the reach is endless. So. Uh, from that perspective, it’s, um, you can, you can develop a company in [00:45:00] Europe and then decide if it’s better for you to scale it in Europe or in the us uh, depending on, on what the opportunity is for you.

Josua: Yeah, that makes sense. What are your thoughts on, on the Norwegian startup scene? ’cause that’s something that [00:45:15] I’m, of the Nordic countries, um, it feels like Norway’s the biggest kind of blank, you know, blank for me. I, I, I don’t really know a lot what’s going on, so, so what are, yeah, what are your thoughts and what are you excited about there?

Tom: Yeah. I, I think Norway has. Uh, [00:45:30] uh, a lot of, some of the same things actually as, as Finland, if I think about it because, uh, there’s quite a, a good, strong tech base in Norway. Um, we’ve obviously been very successful, uh, in very complex industries before, and, [00:45:45] uh, sort of, uh, fisheries and, and, and, and all, uh, ocean based, but also in oil and gas, which, which has built a strong culture of both, uh, uh, entrepreneurship, innovation, but also deep tech stuff.

Tom: Uh, having [00:46:00] said that, though, we haven’t been so successful as, for instance, the Swedes in, in developing these new, uh, global tech companies. Uh, I do think that, um, uh, Norway, Denmark, Finland probably are roughly plus minus on the same scale, [00:46:15] the more, uh, venture, uh, capital coming, more successful founders coming.

Tom: So I think it’s a, it’s a positive development. I think the Nordic. We should look at the Nordic more as, as one sort of thing, [00:46:30] because I, I think these sort of country by country comparisons are sometimes, you know, depending on, on legacy and stuff. So, but if you look at the Nordic as a whole, I think it’s a amazingly, uh, interesting area.

Tom: And I, I do think, uh, when again, you [00:46:45] go and talk to the US players and others, they look at the Nordics as, as like one scene and, and the cultural and the language similarities and also this sort of, um, easy transition between. Means that we, we have a strong [00:47:00] base, uh, in the Nordics, that that is very investible.

Tom: Um, and, and, and we have good things from our societal, uh, and our sort of cultural background and technical background that, that supports, um, that, [00:47:15] that, that strong companies should come outta Nordics. And, and I hope to see also Norway having more of these, uh, unicorn successful founders, that that leads to examples.

Tom: Uh, that means national [00:47:30] founders, uh, believe is possible. And, and I think Sweden, we, we can give a lot of credit because they’ve, they’ve had some of those lighthouses, right? The Spotifys and the carers and all of that. And that has sort of led to a, to a sort of a, a culture of sort of believing [00:47:45] is possible and, and also support around it, uh, which I think is great.

Josua: Absolutely. That’s, that’s actually really, really exciting. Exciting to see. Um, I wanna talk about a little bit of, you know, the, the kind of day-to-day work, uh, that you do as a, as a [00:48:00] venture capitalist. You mentioned that you’ve, uh, you’ve looked at, so far, you have thousands of companies invested in three to four per year.

Josua: So I’m guessing that, you know, one to 2% or something, of all the companies you look at, you end up investing. And you mentioned these are qualified companies. It’s not just random, [00:48:15] uh, random people, random teams. So what is it that makes you get excited and what is it that, what does it take for a team to get a yes out of you, you know, one to 2% of the teams that do anything, any patterns or, [00:48:30]

Tom: um, well, I, I do think there are some of these, um, core things that I guess everybody’s looking for.

Tom: I mean, you, you wanna sort of, uh, get an idea of what, what is the drive behind this, uh, company and obviously the founder, [00:48:45] the team. Um, but also the, we call it the rig. I mean, what is around this company? Have they, have they been able to attract, uh, good teammates? Have they gotten partners that are, I mean, what’s the sort of the ecosystem they’ve been [00:49:00] building already?

Tom: Uh, I mean, and, and remember that we, we don’t invest in companies straight out of the idea. We do invest when they’ve come a little bit of a, a way. So there’s some, there’s some traction around them. Um, obviously the [00:49:15] idea needs to be compelling. Um, good enough. It doesn’t have to be like super unique that it’s one of a kind only, but you need to sort of think that the idea is such that that team can make it [00:49:30] happen.

Tom: And then, and then of course, you, you do all the, you know, does it scale fast enough and do we believe in the business model? But at the end of the day, uh, it is that combination of, uh, being excited around that team and, and listening to what. [00:49:45] How they gonna make this happen. And then looking at it and, and trying to picture how you also can fit in and fill some of the blanks and, and be helpful.

Tom: So it needs to be something that is from the start, um, [00:50:00] has, has good, good elements, but we also need to see how we can be part, not only capital, because that’s capital is there around, but how can we help them and, and be, you know, providing more than capital, providing [00:50:15] inside network, you know, just sort of, uh, over time, uh, that, that, uh, actually, and, and last thing I wanna say, which maybe is a little bit selfish, but I, I wanna personally also, and with the team, I, I wanna have, [00:50:30] uh, kind of get energy, have fun doing it because I, I I, I don’t want to work, uh, with people or situations or anything else that doesn’t.

Tom: Excite me, if that makes sense. Um, and, and obviously [00:50:45] it has to be the other way around. So my advice to founders will always be that make really, uh, make sure that you do the right diligence on who you end up with. Make sure that you, you think through how you can grow with these investors and also that [00:51:00] you in a way, uh, get energy and like the people that you’re gonna work with because they’re gonna be around you for a long time.

Josua: Um, it’s kind of a broad question, but you know, obviously when you’re starting up a new [00:51:15] venture, a new startup, you have a lot of excitement. Uh, there’s a big vision, there’s a lot of hopes when you’re fundraising, you’re always looking at the positive and big, big hopes and dreams. And at some point, you know, reality is gonna sink or probably have multiple points.

Josua: You’re [00:51:30] gonna run into a lot of challenges and people react very different under pressure. How, so how, how do you think about that? That, you know, perspective, like, okay, the business seems great, you know, the market is there, the product, you know, go to markets. Seems to make [00:51:45] sense. Um, but yeah, how, how big of a factor is the fact that people just react very differently under pressure and some people react very poorly, um, maybe unethically or just, just in a way that’s destructive maybe.

Josua: So how, how do you think about that kind of [00:52:00] piece?

Tom: Well, I, I do think, um, it’s probably something that is not always talked about so much, um, because it’s a little bit, um, sensitive if you, if you’re a founder or even an investor. [00:52:15] Uh, and, and believe me, I mean, I, I’m sure both sides can talk about stress and, and, and pressure over time.

Tom: Uh, everybody wants to be successful and, and, you know, it’s not so easy to talk about things that are [00:52:30] difficult or when you need help. Um, I, I think there is probably a big gray area within sort of, call it the mental health, uh, sort of the topic. Um, I think that for a, from a founder, I think it’s.

Tom: [00:52:45] Generally, and, and I can just say truly from, from where we’re sitting is that I would much rather a founder come and say, Earl, listen, I need help. Or listen, this is difficult, and reach out and, and try and, and if that’s [00:53:00] natural, uh, which you as an investor and a partner, um, uh, and you have that trust relationship, uh, then I do think that is, is critical because I think nobody can do it all on their own.

Tom: And, and it’s not, it’s [00:53:15] not gonna be a positive outcome if, if stress and, and, and sort of maybe failure if you will. Uh, it’s getting to you. Um, so from a personal point of view, but also from a professional point of view, uh, I do think that it’s something that [00:53:30] probably we need to, um, deal with more. We need to have that open conversation.

Tom: Uh, as investor, we need to be also conscious about. How we put pressure on companies because we are, [00:53:45] you know, I’ve gotten big checks from my investors and they expect return. Uh, I put checks to founders and I expect them to perform and the founder wants to perform. So there’s a lot of implicit pressure.[00:54:00]

Tom: Uh, but I do think we need to, on a serious note, um, be conscious about all the sort of pressure and what that can lead to for mental, uh, health issues. Um, and actually as, as a sort of an investor, [00:54:15] I’d love to, to find, uh, things to invest that I can actually, uh, be part of be because this is a much bigger trend than, than just, uh, within the, the startup community.

Tom: This is something that. Affects [00:54:30] our society big time, just sort of helping people get out of, of situations, but also when, when people are under, uh, stress and rest, that, that the mental, um, health, um, problem in society, it’s probably the, [00:54:45] the most understimulated big problem we have. So as an investor, I’d love to, to put money into something that really, I could feel that that would be part of a solution.

Josua: Yeah, for sure. I mean, it’s a, it’s a massive human cost [00:55:00] and, and, and financial cost as well. It, it’s probably, like you said, there’s, there’s so much, there’s a lot of pressure, implicit pressure throughout the chain. And I guess guess, uh, maybe second time founders, serial entrepreneurs are more aware of what they’re [00:55:15] doing when they’re going into trying to raise institutional funding and build a big company.

Josua: And I’m guessing, you know, going back to what you said earlier about as a founder, you need that sort of ego. Um, and, um. Josh Wolf of [00:55:30] Lux Capital, uh, said he, he has this quote that, you know, chips in, chips on shoulders, put chips in pockets. So like he’s, he said like bit, maybe a bit provocatively. Like, I don’t want my founders to be like, well, you know, completely okay with everything.

Josua: [00:55:45] Like, I want them to have some, there needs to be something that really drives them and that doesn’t maybe always produce the most, I don’t know, the most balanced people, I guess. So maybe is there a tension there between, like you [00:56:00] said, on the one hand? Yeah. Is there a tension?

Tom: Um, I, I think, I think there is, um.

Tom: And, and like I said, I I, I can just look at our own portfolio companies. I mean, almost all of them have had, or are having some sort of, you [00:56:15] know, growth pains that could be plants that didn’t work out. Uh, uh, some team issues. And, and these are smaller or larger issues, and, and the tensions are there because you don’t always agree on the solutions.

Tom: And, uh, [00:56:30] and, and sometimes, you know, um, things are coming, uh, that are, you know, both, uh, surprising or, or disappointing. So it’s how do you deal with those things? It’s like in your personal life, you know, you, you wanna, uh, you, you [00:56:45] wanna find good ways of dealing with what problems, um, uh, but then moving on and, and, and sort of, uh, thinking that, um, you can, you can move on.

Tom: But we, we do see sometimes that these things don’t end up well. I mean that people, uh. [00:57:00] We had situations where, where, you know, uh, founders have, uh, maybe, uh, partly, uh, the pressure that, that they put on themselves, uh, the pressure that come from their peers, but also of course, [00:57:15] pressure from their investors and others have led them to take, um, uh, decisions that, that are maybe not rational or maybe are not helpful in the, in, in the long term.

Tom: But, but at the time it’s, it’s probably the pressure that led them to, to take [00:57:30] some of those shortcuts. Um, again, I, I do think that I, I would hope that any founder that would, um, would have, um, that are in those situations would still feel like, [00:57:45] um, it’s more. Upside in actually sometimes reaching out and asking for help, or at least asking for, you know, can we sort of have an open discussion because I don’t really know what to do here, rather than [00:58:00] thinking that you need to solve it yourself, but, but maybe, uh, it takes a bit of maturity or maybe it takes a bit of experience.

Tom: And there’s this saying, I think, uh, that people are saying in, in, uh, maybe it’s a us saying that nobody wants to [00:58:15] invest in, in a founder who hasn’t already failed before. Uh, and maybe that is a little bit of that, uh, but then you felt a bit, um, uh, the pain and then maybe you can relate to it in a different way and, and not feel ashamed about it, [00:58:30] that if something doesn’t go well.

Josua: That’s an interesting point, uh, with that, with that quote, because one competitive advantage that the US has is there’s less shame and fear around failure. And like you said, that the people who have failed [00:58:45] are. Might be much more, much better equipped to take on a new startup than the one who hasn’t. And they may, um, at least, I mean, I’m not sure how it’s in the venture space, but in, in every other type of business, you know, [00:59:00] um, if you’ve had a bankruptcy or something, if know the banks everything, it’s, it, it’s just everything is so much more difficult.

Josua: So I feel like that’s, or do you feel like that’s a, something that we maybe would need to, to change our attitudes around failure?

Tom: [00:59:15] Well, I, um, I think culturally, I think it’s easy to say that maybe it’s not such a typical Nordic sort of feature to, to, to have that shameless approach. Uh, at least it’s not So in Norway, I, I can’t speak for [00:59:30] Finland, but I, my guess is that we’re, we’re more similar.

Tom: But I do think, uh, what is very good though, I think you see already in the end. In the startup world that, that people are trying things and, and then they’re switching and, and doing something else. I, I think [00:59:45] that is part of building, uh, building that impression that listen, you know, it’s, it’s okay to try things and, and if people invest in you, they, they take their own decision.

Tom: So you’re not fooling anybody. You’re just trying to, to do, uh, the [01:00:00] best you can and you have an idea. And, and then we see more and more of these serial founders that are trying something, they work for a while and they say, listen, it didn’t work out. I’m trying something new. And they, they are maybe then even more attractive in the second round if, if you [01:00:15] think about it.

Tom: So, so I, I do think, uh, the whole startup innovation space is probably an area where, where this sort of, uh, this feature or this bug, maybe we call it a bug, uh, is more likely to go [01:00:30] away over time then in other places of society where it still feels like you shouldn’t sort. Stick out too much and you, and if you are failing, then that’s your own fault in a way.

Tom: But, um, so again, I, I, I, I’d like that to [01:00:45] be, um, uh, the outcome here. And I, I do think that, uh, a lot of young founders seem, are carrying that attitude now, and I think that’s great.

Josua: Tom, you’re a very busy man, so I’m not gonna keep [01:01:00] you for much longer. I just wanna kinda wrap up with one question here. And it’s a, it’s a broad question so you can answer it however you like, but you’ve had in, in a lot of ways a very successful career.

Josua: Um, it’s lots, lots still ahead. The best is yet to come. We, we like to hope. But, [01:01:15] um, lots of, lots of successes in, in various different fields. You’ve seen a lot of, a lot of success in from others. You’ve seen high performance teams, you’ve seen probably a lot of failures and, and pressure and mistakes and shortcuts and everything.

Josua: So if someone, [01:01:30] to someone who is thinking about. Starting a startup or maybe is running a startup is what would be kind of, um, do you have any general advice that you would Wow. [01:01:45] Yeah. Would’ve liked to receive maybe when you were first starting EMX and going on that intense journey of near death experiences and pressure and hopes and dreams and fears and everything.

Tom: Uh, that’s [01:02:00] really a tough, uh, tough last question, but, uh, but, uh, I, I think, you know, I’ll maybe I’ll, I’ll just sort of go on a high note saying, I mean, if you, if you have this sort of dream and idea and, and this drive, I mean, I would say [01:02:15] go for it. Uh, first of all, I, I think. Particularly if you’re sort of, uh, uh, trying things out.

Tom: I mean, life is long. I mean, you, you can try things, you can make it happen if it doesn’t work like we just talked about. [01:02:30] So I, I would say follow follow your dreams and go for it. I, I would encourage my kids to, to try to find something, uh, that they really feel passionate about. And if, if this idea of, of becoming a founder or, [01:02:45] or, or being an entrepreneur is something you feel really passionate about, I, I would say, but then again, that, that’s the one part, but then I would sort of say, at least try to talk to people around you that might have had some experience with it [01:03:00] or might have done some of those failures or could have something that, and, and, and be open for input.

Tom: Because I think that’s probably, uh, where at least when I talk to founders, I, I’d love it when, if they have their own drive, the need to come in with some [01:03:15] really drive for something, but. They also need to have an open, curious mind and wanting to, to learn. So if you are only going and, and you’re set and you only, um, wanna do it in your own way, um, then, [01:03:30] then I’m less, uh, impressed.

Tom: But if you are also able to combine that, that energy and that dream with, uh, curiosity and, and being willing to, to, to learn and, and, and, and hear what other people are at least giving as [01:03:45] input, then I think that’s the best combination. So maybe I’ll leave it at those two because otherwise it’ll, it will feel like I, I know the recipe and I don’t, but I, I can at least say that those two are pretty generic.

Josua: Yeah. That’s really, really good. [01:04:00] Um, THG, thank you so much for coming on, taking time to come on the show and, and talk. I think it’s, uh, really admirable what you and the team are doing and I know that. Starting a startup is really difficult, and the startup founders are the [01:04:15] heroes and they get a lot of praise, which they deservedly so.

Josua: But I also know that, you know, putting together, fundraising, putting together a fund, executing that strategy, a lot of pressure, a lot of work. So it’s, uh, it’s, it’s be, I mean, that’s, [01:04:30] um, it’s a lot of, yeah, it’s, it’s very difficult. So I respect, I respect the work that you’re doing and I, I, I like the fact that it’s, you know, it’s good for the Nordic, it’s good for Europe.

Josua: Um, so I really wish you all the best of luck and, uh, hope, hope you [01:04:45] succeed with your startups and investments. Hope there’s a, uh, new funds in coming, coming down the line. And, uh, lots of, you know, kind of exciting technologies being built in the Nordics or Northern Europe. That would be, that would be really awesome.

Tom: Well, [01:05:00] thanks a lot for, uh, for having me on and, and, and for talking about these things and, and, and sharing, uh, our passion. So, uh, yeah, great to be here. Thanks a lot.