Robotics, industrial tech and the future of manufacturing in Europe

3 takeaways from the conversation with Axel Ahlström

1. Europe needs to stay competitive in manufacturing

Manufacturing is more than just another sector of the economy, it’s a foundational capability. Being able to produce physical systems and products underpins economic resilience, national security, and long-term competitiveness.

Once manufacturing capacity disappears, it’s extremely difficult to rebuild. Entire ecosystems vanish along with it: talent, suppliers, and critical know-how.

Global competition is intensifying, particularly from Asia, where companies often benefit from strong state support. For Europe to remain competitive, automation and technology will be critical. Concepts like highly automated “dark factories,” operating 24/7 with minimal human intervention, may become far more common in the coming years.

The challenge isn’t just innovation. It’s turning technological breakthroughs into industrial scale.

2. Deep tech startups solve real problems but they scale differently

Deep tech and industrial startups follow a different path than traditional venture-backed software companies. They often solve very specific problems across the industrial value chain, from robotics and automation to factory software.

The journey to scale is slower. Technology development takes time, sales cycles are long, and solutions must integrate with complex industrial systems.

But when these companies succeed, they often build durable businesses with strong competitive advantages.

For investors like Axel, the key is not just whether the technology works, but whether there’s a real business behind it. Many robotics startups focus heavily on R&D, but long-term success depends on having a clear path to deployment, scaling, and revenue.

3. Big visions matter, but great founders also have a plan

Bold ideas are essential in venture capital, but vision alone isn’t enough.

According to Axel, the best founders combine a compelling long-term vision with a clear understanding of how to get there. They can explain why the problem matters and how they plan to solve it step by step.

In deep tech especially, credibility matters. Many of the strongest founders come from research environments or have spent years working on the problems they’re tackling.

The most successful founders don’t just talk about big markets or ambitious futures. They show a logical path from today’s technology to tomorrow’s company.

Watch the episode:

Transcript

Josua: Axel, welcome to the show.

Axel: Thank you.

Josua: Good to be here. Excited to talk about kind of the intersection between industrial, manufacturing, mature companies and technology and startups, which you both, because of your background and what you’re currently doing is, is kind of well, really well positioned to talk about.

Um, so we’re gonna talk about quant, the, the, the industrial, um, kind of a deep tech fund that you launched together with the team in about two and a half years ago. First fund 70 million euros. And, uh, made 12 investments so far. But before we get [00:01:00] get to that, could you give a brief background on, you know, your professional background and what led you to to Quant?

Axel: If we go kind of back a little bit, um, I think when, when someone asked me, and this is what I’ve been told, when someone asked me when I was five. You know, what they wanna become when you grow old. I’ve always said, and, and kind of an engineer. Mm-hmm. So it was never, you know, police or whatever was always kind of an engineer.

And I actually, you know, started off as an engineer and, and, and, uh, went to, at that time TechCo.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: Um, and at some point, I guess I realized I’m never gonna be the, the, the best engineer.

Josua: Hmm.

Axel: Uh, and also had this kind of, um. Thoughts about kind of business and so on. So I did a, a, a master’s in, in in finance as well.

Um, and ended up on a kind of consulting track. So I went to ba, BA and company, um, after that into private equity, uh, with the AL Outdoor, so kind of a larger buyout fund in Sweden. And then as you said, in, in [00:02:00] 23, started Quantum. And I think for me, the. The kind of the, the, the red thread of what has been, um, constant during my career has always been the, the industrial angle.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: And then, and I can’t explain it, but I was, you know, walking into a factory has always been, you know, just kind of this wow experience for me. And just, you know, physical systems, products, um, and, you know, seeing it kind of smelling it mm-hmm. Have always been made me kind of super excited. Um, and I think that’s, that’s the journey that we’re on with, with, with quant as well.

Josua: Mm.

Axel: Um, kind of the real, real world and the real economy.

Josua: Yeah, there’s something, I mean, it’s very tangible, right?

Axel: Mm-hmm.

Josua: You can see the factory, it’s producing these products and it’s producing on a massive scale and good quality, and it’s kind of, it’s impressive. I mean, especially with an engineering background there, you can appreciate all the engineering that goes into a very well-run factory.

Axel: It’s kind of craftmanship and, and,

Josua: mm-hmm.

Axel: For [00:03:00] me, personally, I mean, I’ve always worked as an investor or a consultant, you know, a different role consultant, investor, board member in these companies, and it’s, it’s obviously. Kind of less, less tangible. Right. To work through, you know, meetings and materials and Excels and power points.

Josua: Yeah.

Axel: And I think that’s what’s always why I’ve been that fascinated then with the kind of the, the real things. Yeah. In a way.

Josua: Yeah. And so wanted, with, with the strategy you have of specifically focusing kind of industrial tech, are you the first and the only fund in Europe that has that focus? And if so, like where did the idea come from to start to make the jump from PE to vc?

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: Uh, which I guess is not very common.

Axel: Yeah. It’s always dangerous to say, right, that you are, you are the only one, right? Because there’s usually a reason why, uh, no one else is there. Uh, so, uh, I’ll put it like this. I think there’s a lot of funds, um, in capital, kind of in the sectors that, that we invest in and that we’re going to invest in.[00:04:00]

But there are very few that has taken a. A kind of a pure play approach. So kind of a, you know, a very kind of specialized verticalized, you know, thinking in the investment. Um, I mean, we’re not the only one. There are some funds in, in, in Europe that has, um, you know, similarities to us, but they usually have another leg ending kind of in life sciences or something else.

Josua: Yeah.

Axel: So, um, and if you look at the kind of then the Nordic lens, I mean, we are quite. Uh, unique in, in kind of how we are positioning ourselves in the market and, and, and, and how kind of focused, uh, we, we we want to be. Um, and that is kind of, I, I guess the whole reason also why we started content. So I think we obviously like the, the, you know, thematically the space.

Josua: Mm.

Axel: Um, not the least because that’s what we know. Mm. That’s kind of the only thing we know in a way. [00:05:00] Um, and, um. And there are kind of macro tailwinds, you know, supporting that kind of theme in a way. So you have obviously political pressure, pressure in, in, in Europe to to succeed in this strategic. The kind of industrial, deep techno technologies.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: You have on the technology side a lot that has happened that now kind of enables, uh, um, these companies to, to scale. I mean, not the least ai, but it’s not the only one. Um, you know, hardware costs is dropping and you are able to, for example, train robots in a way that, that you just weren’t able to do before.

Um, so that’s the kind of thematic approach. And, and then. We believe our kind of core belief on, on, on why we are doing this is that. We think kind of a specialist in this segment is, is kind better position to succeed, um, uh, gen than a generalist, given that they are very [00:06:00] specific type of customer behavior.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: You know, sales cycles, et cetera. Um, and then the third one, what you kind of alluded to earlier on the kind of competitive, competitive side, um, that we think there is room for a, for a kind of specialized industrial deep tech player to emerge. Also on a larger scale in in, in Europe, which is kind of part of our long-term, long-term vision.

Josua: Hmm. Uh, one, I guess effect of having that very specific vertical focus is you’re not as geographically constrained. Mm-hmm. I was looking through your portfolio. Yeah. And I feel like almost there was, you know, I think 12 investment, then it was like, not quite, but like almost 12 different countries.

Axel: Mm-hmm.

Josua: So you’re investing in Switzerland, I think. Yeah. Iceland and Finland and Estonia all over the place. So I’m guessing that is very rare for a fund, for Nordic fund, especially first time fund, to be that geographically, you know, broad.

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: Would you say. Sorry.

Axel: Definitely. Yes. Um, [00:07:00] and I think we started off, uh, by being kind of very, um, um, dispersed or like, you know, looking at, at, at the very kind of broad area.

And, and I think there is a balance. So, so you can do kind of specialist and be, you know, good at what you do and then look, look in a kind of broader region. But obviously this is still venture and venture is local, uh, or kind of semi-local, regional. So I think, you know, we’re still finding our way. Um.

Where we are kind of taking it now is, is still to be, you know, having kind of Finland as our home base, um, and having kind of Syria, uh, as a kind of second base and then from these countries kind of look, you know, to the Nordics, but also from Syria, then to kind of Germany and Ano Germany and, and, and, and Munich.

So I agree with you. Um, we are. We have a kind of a geographically a, a wider net, [00:08:00] uh, than, than usually fund. It also, of course, depends on the stage. I mean, so if, if you go very, very early, you’re gonna be super local and the later you go the kind of the broader, your geographic, um, kind of net in a way will be.

Josua: Mm-hmm. Why is Zurich, why, uh, why Finland? Why is Zurich what’s happening there?

Axel: Yeah, it’s a very, I mean. S clear, uh, reason. Um, so if you start by kind of top down, you know, why Europe, uh, in a way Well, that’s a good question. Yeah. I think that’s kind of where you need to start, or that’s the questions that you get.

Um, the fact is that you, if of the top 10, you know, global, uh, universities, when you look at, uh, engineering and physical sciences, three of them are in Europe. And so. You know, we’ve always had the innovations and we’ve never been able to kind of, you know, commercialize them in a way. Um, um, and now, um, you know, there is this [00:09:00] next generation of founders through the some breakout cases that are then, you know, in according to, you know, to us hopefully, um.

Uh, now have the kind of the toolkit and the experiences to actually kind of scale companies in these sectors. But if you then look at the, kind of the Nordics and, and look at kind of spin out value create per per capita. Um, Finland, Sweden, Denmark are actually all in the top five.

Josua: Okay.

Axel: And there is one.

Country leading the pack by far. And that is Switzerland. So ETH, uh uh, sorry. Um, so they’ve spun out, I think 600 and, um, you know, 50 ish companies so far from that university. Last year they spun out, um, uh, one company a week. Um, and they have, um, a lot of the kind of industrial backbone. You know, we have the abbs of the world, very strong in robotics.

And now we have, um, um, many of the kind of [00:10:00] big tech companies also moving, uh, moving to Zurich. So it’s just a very strong ecosystem.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: Uh, and it’s surprising with all the capital that you should have there, uh, it’s actually quite immature still on the venture side. Mm-hmm. So we think there’s kind of a, you know, a good match of, you know, a lot of things happening on a grassroots level.

But it’s not gonna over flood with, with, with capital yet. So that’s why we see, uh, we have an opportunity there. And it’s also kind of a small enough ecosystem. You know, if you compare to Finland, it, you know, there are some similarities, um, on, uh, on the kind of economy in a way, uh, compared to Finland, so.

Josua: Okay. That’s really interesting. And it seemed probably a quite, um. Original or kind of bold bet, like a typical approach would be to go from Helsinki, maybe to Stockholm or

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: Estonia or Copenhagen.

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: Um, but it, it, yeah,

Axel: really quite sense. And I, it’s from the focus that we have, I mean, so robotics is obviously one core team, uh, that we look [00:11:00] at.

Um, and, uh. We think, you know, the, the probability that, um, there’s a higher probability that the next, you know, big robotics company will come from that region

Josua: mm-hmm.

Axel: Than it is that it will come from, um, you know, uh, Sweden or, or, or, or, or Norway.

Josua: Sure. Uh,

Axel: so I think we need to go, I mean, how we think about it is, is true ecosystems.

And the ecosystems can be quite, um. Small or hidden. So the obvious one in Finland is kind of quantum, right? So Finland was, Helsinger was just selected as the second most, uh, you know, um, dense, um, kind of quantum ecosystem. Which,

Josua: who was number one?

Axel: I actually don’t even remember. Uh, I think it was probably some specific region in the US or in uk, but I don’t remember which one it was.

Um, so that’s a kind of obvious one that it’s kind of already spoken about, but there are other. Kind of more local ecosystems. We just [00:12:00] invested in a, um, a laser company. I think it’s actually published today, uh, up in Berra. Um, and it’s something it is not spoken about, but, but there is a massive, um, concentration.

Uh, of, of talent and, and, and knowhow and experience in, in kind of the la broader kind of laser ecosystem in Tamara. Um, and then you look Zurich, right? You have it the same in robotics. So I think you need to, you need to kind of peel the onion a little bit when you think about, you know, where. Where you need to be present and areas you need to focus on.

Uh, it’s not a kind of one size fits all. You know, let’s go to Sweden.

Josua: Yeah.

Axel: I think if you wanna kind of really, you know, find the kind of hidden gems in a way.

Josua: Yeah. And that’s the thing about vvc, right? You need to be early in a sense. Yeah. Not too early, but you can’t just be a follower because you’re not gonna get the returns.

Axel: Yeah. Yeah.

Josua: Um, okay. I wanted to go back to kind of the beginning. We were talking before we started recording. One of the benefit you [00:13:00] guys had was a strong anchor investor allow you to raise a fund, first fund, which, you know, significant size quite, uh, very quickly. Yeah. But still it’s, it’s never easy to launch any new business.

Um, and you know, this is not exception. So, you know, what was the first investment? Like, what was the first year like? You’re going about creating deal flow.

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: You know? Yeah. Can you talk us through that? The beginning of starting a new fund?

Axel: Yeah. I mean, we are a startup. Um, that that’s what we are. Um, um, even though we are, we are, we are in the form of a fund, uh, but we are still a startup.

Um, so it was a lot of practical stuff, um, um, you know, uh, admin things that need needed to be solved. Um, but it was a good time. The beginning. You’re a little bit kind of in a honeymoon phase, right? Mm-hmm. Uh. The world is your oyster, uh, and everything is fun. Um, and then at some point you start realizing that it’s a lot of work.

Um, there are so [00:14:00] many kind of work streams in a way that you need to run at the same time. I mean, it’s new investments, it’s, uh, you know, managing the portfolio, helping out your portfolio, which is obviously, you know, the most important thing. It’s also recruitment, uh, for the fund. It’s thinking about. You know, what are we going to do next as a fund, um, in terms of, you know, strategy, geographic focus.

Um, and then it’s also, you know, fundraising, uh, started to building, um, kind of a pipe pipeline for that. It’s positioning, um, branding, marketing, which is obviously very important in this, um, in this industry as well. Um, so there’s a lot of things. I think maybe, maybe, I think some people have a, a kind of, um.

A little bit skewed kind of view on, you know, as we, you know, we sit there and just, you know, invest, uh, there, it’s, it’s kind of quite the big package you need to kind of manage.

Josua: Yeah.

Axel: Um, and, and the world, you know, is changing [00:15:00] all the time. And we have a kind of a, you know, some, our kind of core beliefs and, and a, a kind of conviction on the thematically in what we are investing in.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: But also in that space. Uh, things change. I mean, you know, geopolitics, um, you know, technological advancements, uh, you know, what competition is doing. You know, for example, in robotics, right? So there’s a lot of happening all the time. Uh, so you need to kind of be on the pulse, um, and, and, and, and kind of build a new conviction, um, and, and find thesis kind of within these, uh, larger, uh, themes.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: Um, so yeah.

Josua: Yeah. That’s interesting because I, like you said, running a VC fund. Starting a VC fund running. Yeah. Especially my VC fund. There’s both a lot of just work you need to do. There’s a lot of people you need to make meet and correct build relationships. Yeah. But then you also have this, this thing like this [00:16:00] cognitive intellectual demand on you.

Because I had lunch yesterday with a investors who’s like early stage, we were talking about this, the fact that. Things are changing so fast now.

Axel: Mm.

Josua: And when you’re investing in early, early stage, you’re investing at the tip of the spear, like where the change is the fastest. Yeah. And you’re investing in all these different sectors, and you’re flooded with information and you have to try to navigate it and have some kind of theme or hypothesis and learn new things and feel always like you’re falling behind and probably feel like you’re, you’re stupid because there’s always new stuff coming up.

Intro: Mm-hmm.

Josua: So, yeah. Can you talk about, like, does that resonate, that piece of just like the, the intellectual challenge of trying to Yeah. Navigate all this change and find opportunity before everyone else.

Axel: Yeah. I think what, what I’ve found challenging and it’s kind of linked to that, um, is the, the kind of amount of noise, uh, on the, I think it’s true for all aspects of, you know, society I guess at the moment, right?

Yeah. They’re just over flooded all the time, you know, on everything. [00:17:00] Uh, and it’s difficult to see what is true and what is not. Um. I’ll take an example. Um, you know, on humanoid, uh, robots, right? Based on the, you know, videos you see on LinkedIn, you would, you could make the conclusion that it has kind of been solved, that, you know, humanoids will be around us.

You know, next year everything is done. And then when you, you know, dig a little bit kind of deeper, you realize that that’s probably not the case. Um, and that, I mean, it’s, it’s maybe a stupid example, but, but. That influences kind of your, your thesis, you know, for example in robotics and what are, you know, the place that you can do and it’s true for, you know, a lot of the sectors.

Um, um, so what, what was actually your question?

Josua: Um, just the, the challenge of having kind of, um. Yeah. Having an original contrarian thesis Yeah. That, developing that.

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: And obviously it can’t just [00:18:00] be contrarian, it has to be correct. So it us

Axel: the

Josua: returns.

Axel: Yeah. Or I mean, it can’t be, it’s not gonna be, it’s difficult to say.

Correct. And, and I think that’s what I’ve also had to learn in now in, in, in, in venture, if you are truly, um, kind of investing at, at, you know, the frontier in a way.

Josua: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Axel: Um. I mean, obviously you need to have a thesis, but kind of looking at the world 10 years from now, uh, is not linear. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s diff difficult mm-hmm.

To say, uh, you know, correct or not, and it’s going to pivot and so on. It can be kind of a logical steps, and I think that’s, that I think is very important. I mean, you can have. Visions are important. Um, you know, big, bold ideas are important, but there also needs to be, um, some logical arguments on why, you know, [00:19:00] why it will look that way.

Uh, and I think that’s, that’s an area where some founders, um, kind of fail in a way. That they think that the way to get, you know, people interested in is, is, you know, talk Elon Musk language, you know, talk very big things, but, but there’s no kind of, there’s no path there. And, and, and that’s kind of maybe comes from my, you know, my kind of private equity background that, you know, obviously there needs to be a big vision and, you know, it, it’s easier to get funding for difficult things than easy things because.

You know, difficult things are exciting. Um, but, but you can, you need to kind of build a logical, you know, argumentation or narrative, you know, why? Um, and uh, it’s also kind of from a financial side, right? It’s okay not to make, you know, [00:20:00] uh, you don’t have to be profitable now, but there needs to be a kind of a path to profitability.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: Which is kinda logical. Yeah. You know, if this happens, you know, X, y, Z will happen and then we become kind of profitable. But that link is often doesn’t exist with, with many. Uh, founders or startups.

Josua: Yeah. And I feel like it’s hard, hard to have, especially in the same person, someone who has a visionary ability to see the future and then also break it down into, okay, this requires us to deliver, deliver this service first so we can fund the next development and da, da, da.

Axel: Yeah. But I don’t think it’s DII think that’s kind of critical. Uh, for me, it’s essential.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: Um, and, uh. The people with big ideas that succeed. I mean, I don’t, I don’t think they succeed because they have very big ideas. They kind of succeed because they know how to get there. Uh, uh, so, you know, my, my my kind of very simple and you know, when I also look at founders and companies, uh, is that, [00:21:00] um.

There’s a, there’s a plan. There needs to be a plan. And, and, and I think the people that succeed, you know, in a big way, they do have a plan. They know how to get there. Obviously they need to kind of, you know, there are things where they need to pivot. Um. But in their head

Josua: mm-hmm.

Axel: They have steps how to get there.

Yeah.

Axel: Uh, and it’s, it’s not like, you know, we know how to take this first step and then there’s, you know, 50 steps and there’s big vision, but I have no idea how to get there. Yeah. I don’t, I don’t think that’s. I don’t think the big success, uh, cases, uh, come out from that kind of thinking. In a way, I think it’s a little bit more boring than people think.

Josua: Yeah. I, I agree. It’s not, people don’t make those big leaps at once. They No. The successful people are the ones who can take those small steps very quickly.

Axel: Exactly. And not everything needs to be, obviously it cannot be fully planned out. Yeah, yeah. But, but, but kind of, you have a very clear direction, at least on, on, on, on the kind [00:22:00] of the continuous.

Improvement steps that you need to take

Josua: for sure.

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: Um, I wanna talk a little bit about the kind of industrial, you know, the in industrial manufacturing and, and what’s happening there. But first, because you mentioned humanoids, um, is there anything, you’re looking at a lot of different technologies and how AI is being applied.

Are there areas where you, you’re think, that are currently like overhyped, like maybe humanoids? Mm-hmm. And are there things where people. Maybe especially like industrial applications where things are, you think that we’re gonna see real, real improvements and people are not paying attention to it at the moment.

Axel: Yeah. Um,

I mean, you, we, we, we spoke about robotics. You are very, very, uh, many robotics companies in Europe. Now, uh, you know, on a kind of graduate level, uh, there are, you know, hundreds, um. Uh, even, you know, thousands, maybe a little bit, kind of how you define it. And, and obviously not, not all of them are going to make money.[00:23:00]

Very few, you know, a fraction of them are going to make money. And there’s a little bit of, um, um, this kind of narrative that, you know, just build it. And, and then, and then we’ll figure out the, kind of the business model on how we make money afterwards. Um, and I think the, the. Especially in robotics. Um, I think it will come, you know, sooner than later.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: That you need to have a business business model and a kind of a deployment model. And I go to market model and, uh, a scaling model. But, and, and, and, and currently it’s a little bit, you know, we, we, we do this kind of r and d you know, interesting things here. Uh, but the, the, the kind of the. The path to monetization is, is maybe not there.

Mm-hmm. Um, then on the other hand, um, I don’t think it’s a specific thing, but, but, um, [00:24:00] again, um, there are a lot of new tools on, on, in, in kind of ai, um, where you get, you know. Benefits long term that are coming up. So I’ll give an example. We have a, a French company called Sam ai. Um, they can create, um, with their, with their, uh, ai, a kind of complete 3D visualization of, of, of, of factories.

Um, and it’s not kind of a, you know, the benefit is not instant.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: And it’s going to take time, but the kind of, the return on investment, you know, long term is, is, is. Is is massive.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: So, um, there are things where, you know, the, the kind of, the short term expectations are a little bit, kind of too high, but then the kind of the long term, uh, return on investment for, for, for some areas

Josua: Hmm.

Axel: Is, is, is going to be, you know, [00:25:00] larger than I think people think. Uh, and it’s still new. I mean, a lot of this is new, so it, it’s difficult to, people are still trying to find proof points, you know, what works and what doesn’t work. And, um. And obviously the, you know, things move quite slowly in the industrial sector.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: Um, yeah.

Josua: Uh, in the case of the, the startup, because I, I looked into that a little bit and I think it’s really interesting application, um, is, is the, the idea that this will allow to find bottlenecks in production or with maintenance or. Or it, it build out the factory. It’s

Axel: primarily mine maintenance, but it obvious also kind of, you know, safe safety aspects.

Josua: Sure, yeah.

Axel: Of knowing where, you know, a specific valve is with it, with, with kind of, you know, risk for gas explosions.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: Kind of. And they actually don’t know now where they are often. Yeah. Because, you know, you’ve been doing maintenance for 50 years on this kind of old, you know, legacy. Yeah. Uh, facilities, uh, which are, you know, massive in scale.

Josua: Yeah. [00:26:00] The really interesting thing I find with startups is because there are so many, there are, there’s always some startup working on very specific application problem that, you know, if you’re not, if you don’t know that, you had no idea that, oh, actually, now that you explain it makes a lot of sense.

Like of course that would, a lot of big factories would need that.

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: So we’re probably gonna see them use AI under these other tools to solve like. Millions of small problems across the entire value chain and cu cumulative effect is gonna be cheaper, safer, better.

Axel: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Josua: Yeah.

Axel: And I think that, and actually on that, and that’s kinda where we um, obviously, you know, spend a lot of time on, on how small are the problem.

I mean, from our investor perspective. Um. You, you can often talk, we talk about kind of point solutions and how big can this kind of point solutions scale in a way. So you get kind of venture returns and there’s the eternal balancing [00:27:00] of, of a kind of entry into these companies and an entry product. But how do you then kind create the large enough, you know.

Uh, platform kind of thinking that it’s, it’s not only, you know, the, the kind of end game is not the point solution, but you can actually kinda be, build something bigger, but you need to get in somehow into these large industrial enterprises. Mm-hmm. Um, so I think there are thinking has, has evolved quite a bit, um, in terms of.

That they need to be, they still need to be a mission critical anyway. Mm-hmm. And you need to see the, the return on investment, uh, quite early. No one’s gonna, no one’s gonna buy them for the fun of it. Uh, or it’s kind of nice to have, I mean, maybe, you know, a couple of companies would buy it, but you’re never gonna scale it.

So, so, you know, there needs to be mission critical. Um. And there needs to be, um, a kind of a plan of, of how you [00:28:00] go more in a way, horizontal in these companies as well.

Josua: Yeah. Let’s talk about, uh, kind of the mature Yeah. Industrial industry and one fact, one stat that you mentioned, which is roughly, that, you know, about 20% of VC capital in Europe comes from industry.

And if Finland, the number is 2%. Um, and we have, we have obviously a historically pulp and paper, big industries. We still have like mature major industrial, industrial companies. Um, why is the number so low? Is there a big disconnect between startups and what these major, major companies are doing? And if so, why?

Axel: Mm, I mean, I think that the numbers from Europe is also obviously from the kind of family offices, from these industrial kind of heritage assets. So it’s not only capital coming from them, but. But I think if you look at Finland, um, obviously we’ve been quite in a, in a, um, in flux and a volatile period. Uh, I mean, you [00:29:00] mentioned some of the, the industrial sectors that mm, are prominent here.

They’ve been in a pretty big downturn for a very long time, and a lot of the companies, um. Um, that we have here have been, you know, struggling with growth for a longer time. Um, so I think it’s, it’s, it’s a kind of a lack of, uh, you know, confidence and, and, and, and there’s, there’s been so much happening here.

You know, you know, COVID is obviously universal, but, um, you have, you know, Russia, et cetera. So I think there’s, there’s been kind of bigger fish to fry. Uh, for quite some years, uh, with the risk that, you know, you never, you know, look, look long term, but it’s not an easy, I don’t think there’s very, I don’t think no one has cracked, uh, uh, the model.

Exactly. You know? How do you participate, [00:30:00] uh, in these frontier technologies from an industrial, uh, company perspective? I mean, it’s, it’s, you know, the, the, the CVCs that we spoke about a little bit earlier, they have never succeeded in a, in any, you know, good way.

Josua: Corporate venture

Axel: Yes. The corporate venture arms.

Then there is the model of, you know, making investment in the funds. Hmm. Uh, but how do you do that kind of corporation?

Josua: Hmm.

Axel: Um, in a, in, in, in a meaningful way. Um, but. Uh, and Nokia did it with Nokia Growth Partners. Um, I think, you know, they’re probably seeing a lot of strategic kind of benefits from that, but it’s the kind of internal balance of kind of financial and strategic, um, uh, benefits.

Um, but in, you know, I, I can’t put my finger on it, but my, my feeling is that, that there is more, just from a kind of political point of view as well. Now in, in. And [00:31:00] if you talk about kind of villain specifically Mm. Just on the venture segment, right. We kind of, we have to succeed. The time is now. Uh, and we actually there, we can’t wait anymore.

And, and I think that is also is going to be affected in the, in all the industrial companies that we have here.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: Uh, there is, there is a kind of, uh, from that owner’s, um, perspective, just more pressure and willingness. To kind of take risk because I think everybody realizes at this point that there’s, we will.

You know, there is no other way than to, than to take, you know, look at new technologies and take risk on that front. Otherwise, we will never get out of this kind of hole, uh, that we’re in.

Josua: Hmm. So do you think startups, uh, whether you know, investing here, startups here in Finland are just using technologies.

From, from startups have a realistic chance at improving the fortunes of these major industrial companies, not just in Finland, but in Europe, like to stay competitive against Asia or, [00:32:00] you know, with the tariffs in the United States and things like that. Mm-hmm. Like is it, is it, is it enough to take these different tools that are gonna help out a little bit safety here, you know, increased automation here?

Axel: Yeah. No, I mean, I, I think the answer is no. Um, and um, if you look at kinda what we invest in, so we have. Um, kind of two different portfolios. We have one, which is the industrial, uh, software, uh, that I mentioned, the kind of in where we think about kind of mission critical systems for them. And, and you can, it can either be kind of a, a, you know, make things more efficient in a cost way or it’s gonna create new business.

Um, and then on the industrial, on the deep tech side, we obviously have kind of standalone, um, product companies that are going to be. You know, scaling on their own with a known offering. Um, and then, then you have some companies that are kind of in between, you know, they have their own kind of full hardware plus, you know, [00:33:00] software offering, but the problem that they’re solving is, you know, uh, doing tasks in, in a more efficient way.

So they’re kind of selling outcomes in a way.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: Um. So, I mean the, the, the companies that we invest in and when the, when they work with the industrial companies, the answer is no. They’re not gonna, you know, save them. Yeah. But, but they, they can find, you know, new revenue streams and, and kind of get, you know, do better customer, uh, service, et cetera.

Um, um, yeah.

Josua: Mm-hmm. What do you think about the, because you talked. Before we started recording as well about Sweden and for instance, Sweden have major, major family and others as well. Um, and we don’t really have that in Finland. We don’t have as much capital. Mm-hmm. But we’d also have these traditions of these family owned industrial companies or families are very active in the industry.

Does that, is that an, um, is that a, uh, disadvantage for us here when it comes to, there’s not that level of [00:34:00] active ownership, a long-term thinking and investment. And, and do we have this? This On one hand, yes, we want growth, we want productivity, but on the other hand, we also want safety, stability, dividends.

Axel: Mm.

And

Josua: there’s no one at the at the wheel.

Axel: Mm.

Josua: Pushing for the direction. No one with the mandate to go in and say, Hey, we, we need to actually invest, like make serious investments. Now what do you think

Axel: de I mean, I think that’s one of the core. Core problems that we have. And I mean, I think it’s, it’s nothing new that we don’t have no, we don’t have Right.

The capital here, uh, in, in, in, in, um, in, in Finland. And I think the only way to get out of it is, is to really take a, you know, 10, 20 year, uh, horizon on it. And, um, and it’s challenging and I think the ones that, you know. Yeah, we should do everything we can that the ones that are [00:35:00] actually ready to take that risk and take that horizon.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: That we keep them, you know, uh, keep them here and keep them happy and give them the, kind of the tools to do it. Um, um, you know, without that. You know, 20 year horizon thinking, 10 year horizon thinking. Um, as I said from the beginning, we, we will never get out of the kind of the hole that we have dug for ourselves.

Josua: Yeah.

Axel: Um, yeah.

Josua: Uh, a question because you’re, like I said, at the intersection, both tech and like these big companies don’t understand how they think now that the change is so fast in, well, maybe not in the industrial side, but you know, certainly in, in, you know, AI and so forth. What does that. How does it have an impact?

And if so, what kind of impact does it have on investment, investment decisions long term? Do they do these investment decisions get pushed back a little bit because there’s so much change happening, [00:36:00] so companies are less, less certain on where to put. I mean, if I think back, we think back like a hundred years, there wasn’t that much change.

So you’re, you’re gonna build a new paper factory or Pope factory, whatever, you know that okay, we’re gonna have access to labor. You know, we’re gonna have access to the raw materials. Mm-hmm. If the political situation is gonna be stable and financing is okay, then we can make that decision.

Axel: Mm-hmm.

Josua: But now, when things are just changing across the field, does that, does that impact these big decisions are being industrial decisions or is it just completely unrelated?

Axel: Mm hmm.

I don’t think, I mean, um, I, I. I think it’s more kind of a geopolitical things that kind of impact. Now, how do you think about investments and, and, and, and I know that it, it feels now for everyone that, you know, AI is changing everything and it’s completely new and we’ve never been here before. [00:37:00] Um, and I’m, I mean, I’m still young.

I, I wasn’t through the whole kind of, you know, when, well, I was around, but I didn’t really understand what was happening, you know, back in the nineties with the internet and so on. So I fundamentally believe that the world has not, you know, uh, changed, um, in a way that you couldn’t kind of make, uh, you know, investment decisions just because things are changing.

Um, I think things have always changed, um, just in kind a different, uh, in, in, in a different way. Um, so I don’t think that’s holding back. Uh, I don’t think that that’s holding back kind of investment. Uh, decisions in any, in any meaningful way. Yeah.

Josua: But the geopolitical stuff is very real because that’s,

Axel: it’s very real.

Yeah.

Josua: That could, I mean, if, you know, tariff changes have a huge impact on, on the business, if that’s something you’re exposed to.

Axel: I, I mean that, that, that’s, that’s really impacting. I mean, think about, I mean, the Chinese have, I mean that [00:38:00] you literally have the state budget against you in some certain strategic sectors, uh, right.

They’re over investing, so they’re not even looking at the return on their investment. It’s absolutely is very difficult to compete. Uh, then, uh, you know, in, in Europe,

Josua: should we, I mean that goes into like state run economies and social economies. Yeah. Yeah. But should we, in Europe, um, if we think manufacturing capabilities Yeah, if that’s a matter of natural security.

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: Secure and supply chains. Um. Should Europe. Should Finland

Axel: yeah.

Josua: Be, should the state have, should, should there be some kind of like Manhattan project level stuff going on?

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: Or are we just, you know, look at what’s happening now with the ev Germany’s, like they’re, they’re struggling massively and it’s what, they have like three or 4 million jobs.

Axel: Yeah,

Josua: probably more if you like indirect. You think about supply chain, I mean it’s, it’s critical to them.

Axel: Yeah. I mean, maybe I’m not commenting on kind of the,

Josua: if you should go,

Axel: you should, but what I’m. Concerned [00:39:00] about is, um, we need to be competitive on cost. Um, the, the Chinese are already there in, in quality.

I mean, everybody knows this. Um. So we need to be com competitive on, on, on, on cost. Uh, and that probably means that we need to automate, uh, a lot more. Um, um, in, in, in the production. Um, there’s this talk about kind of dark, uh, factories, so, you know, 24 7, the human intervention, right? And I think they’re coming and they’re coming sooner than we think.

And, and that’s definitely an area, um, that we need to be. We kind of open about and what does that actually mean? Obviously it’s, it’s every single individual company that makes these decisions. And, and, but from kind of a regulatory perspective, I, I think we, we, we need to get production back, uh, to, to Finland as, uh, as well, um, at least kind of regionally, [00:40:00] you know, not all, you know, from a defense and, and national security perspective.

I think that’s critical. Uh, and if we never, you know. Yeah, produce, being able to produce physical systems and products I think is, you know, kind of critical.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: It’s kind of what the whole society is built on. Uh, somehow, you know, people talk about this ad spend optimizing AI tools, um, which is, yeah.

So, you know, we need to be able to produce things if we want to defend ourselves also in the future. And once they’re out. Um, you know, the knowhow mm-hmm. The supply chains, when everything this is is gone. I think it’s very difficult to get it back. I mean, partly it’s already gone. Uh, but you know, we, we can try to at least build some, some of it back and, and, and become good at that.

Josua: Yeah. I think that’s one thing that people don’t realize is how hard it is to get back. Yeah. Just because we had it once. I mean, this feels, you know, it’s like the fall of Roman Empire and these people are walking around these. [00:41:00] Buildings that they had no idea how to be recreate. Um, and, and like when the cap cap capacity was gone, it’s gone.

Axel: Yeah, exactly. It’s capacity and, and, and knowhow and the people that know what they’re kind of doing. Yeah. And then it’s the supply chains. So if you move, if you know the supply chains die out. It’s very difficult to build that whole supply chain again.

Josua: Yeah. ’cause it’s an ecosystem. It’s not just

Axel: one

Josua: company, it’s setting up one factory.

Axel: Yeah. Yeah. That doesn’t mean obvious that you need to kind of, you know, let’s do everything, you know, domestically. Yeah. But, but, but at least, you know, regionally, we need to have the kind of capabilities, uh, to kind of scale. Then at, at, at some point in certain areas.

Josua: Yeah. But, and with dark factors, I mean, that’s, that’s one area where I guess Finland would be quite well positioned because we have, especially as things are, you know, become electrified because we have a relatively good grid.

Yeah. We have access to like, pretty cheap and green, uh, electricity.

Axel: Yeah. Yeah.

Josua: And, uh, yeah. Um, okay. Let’s switch from kind of the, you know, mm-hmm. [00:42:00] Top level kind of thinking about industries and so on, and talk specifically more about investment philosophy and looking at startups.

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: Because you’ve made not 12, 13 investments.

Axel: Uh, 13. Yeah.

Josua: 13. Um, so probably then you looked at hundreds, if not even more companies. Thousands. Yeah. Thousands. Um, so in your, you’re, yeah. What, what are the things that you’re paying most attention to, uh, in the early stage of looking at a company? Like what’s the immediate red flag? Green flag?

Axel: Yeah. I think it comes a little bit what I was saying earlier, like the big vision needs to be there, uh, otherwise it’s not gonna venture.

Um, but there also needs to be a plan throughout to get there. Um, so without the big vision, I think we’re, we are not interested. Right? As I, it needs to be, it needs to be, um. It needs to be kind of difficult to do and not for the sake of being difficult. Um, but that’s [00:43:00] probably how you’re gonna build, you know, a durable business by doing something that no one else has tried or, or everyone else has failed in.

Um, so this kind of convincing kind of narrative, um, how to get there with the big vision is something that is, is almost the kind of the first. Check mark in a way. Then there are a lot of, you know, is the market, you know, large enough, you know, what’s the competition? All of these things are obviously gonna comes after that.

But the really the first thing I am, you know, thinking, what do I get excited? Uh. I think we started, I, I didn’t really have that. I, I, I tried to kind of dig up, you know, how will I get excited, you know, is, is there things hidden, um, that I don’t get why this is exciting. And I now we’re kind of, I think at least, you know, personally more moving to, you know, in 30 minutes, you know, if this is exciting, if it’s exciting, you know, then you start doing, [00:44:00] you know, the work.

But you need to get that kind of personal excitement, um, as well from them, from the companies. Well,

Josua: and and that’s very true because if, you know, if that person is not able to excite you, they’re not gonna excite recruitments or sales.

Axel: Yeah, yeah.

Josua: The, the big vision. Um, so that’s maybe then more about a big problem solve rather than a big market opportunity or maybe both.

Axel: Yeah. Um,

Josua: maybe they go hand in hand quite often.

Axel: They probably go hand in hand. But, but, but someone who is. Just talking about the market. Uh, it is actually not super exciting. I mean, someone talking about, you know, this is a $10 billion market, it, it, it is not really exciting if you get

Josua: 1% of this

Axel: huge hundred billion.

It’s like, if, if every China man, you know, starts using it, you know, it’s the classic. So it, it, it’s, it, it’s more concrete. It’s, it’s under problem. Uh, it’s what we are solving and why. Yeah. Uh, I think that’s exciting.

Josua: So what does that come from? Because obviously. It’s, it’s one thing to be building these consumer apps.

Axel: Mm.

Josua: Um, [00:45:00] this is, does this, what does it require? What kind of person is the one who develops this in this exciting vision that, that appeals to you? Is it someone who’s engineering background, they’ve spent like 10 years in the industry being really frustrated by this one specific thing? Or is it, can it be people who are just have this?

Yeah. I don’t know. Um, yeah.

Axel: I think it, you know, it’s not one size fits all. Um, we tend to invest, if you look at the kind of founders that we have in our portfolio, they are older, they have experience. It’s difficult for a young person to kind of come up with these ideas if you’ve never been close to a problem.

And almost all of our companies, uh. Uh, come in one way or the other out of the universities, uh, in terms of from, you know, real research. It’s, it’s PhDs and then every now and then, you know, you meet someone who doesn’t come from the, from the industry. Mm-hmm. But just have, you know, such a convincing [00:46:00] story, background.

You know, personal motivation of why they’re doing things, um, that we also, you know, you know, invest and get excited.

Josua: Yeah.

Axel: But on average, our founders are more technical, older, they come out from the universities. Um, yeah.

Josua: Yeah. Uh, you may have answered this, but are there any founder traits or skills that you think are consistently like overrated or underrated?

Things that people pay attention to when they shouldn’t or vice versa?

Axel: I mean, in, in the sector that we invest in,

Josua: Hmm.

Axel: It, it’s kind of important that you know what you’re doing. Um, it doesn’t matter, you know, you know how much vision you have and how much you want to do it if you don’t kind of understand, you know, the physics or the, you know, behind it.

Um, so just building a, [00:47:00] a, a kind of. FOMO around your company in, in this space that we invest in doesn’t really help.

Josua: Yeah.

Axel: And and they are obviously, you can say it’s, it’s overrated at the same time. I mean, great founders recruit great people. They get financing and they can solve it. They have the vision and they have the execution and they know gritty details.

You always have, you, you, you, you often have that as well, but in these very difficult se sectors, you know, to me personally, I think it, it kinda makes sense to, um. Um, to kind of, uh, know the field.

Josua: Yeah. Um,

Axel: um, you know, if you’re gonna run a, if you’re gonna run a laser company, it probably makes sense that you know how lasers work.

Hmm. Uh, you know. Hmm. It’s kind of, yeah. It helps. It helps.

Josua: Um. Now you made the, these investments. Any, any patterns And obviously, I mean this is still early, especially like industrial companies, it’s probably longer product sales cycles, everything. Yeah. But you still have, you know, a couple of [00:48:00] years with some of the investments of looking at them.

Um, anything that, any patterns that emerge, uh, about those who are, you know, able to get traction and able to succeed, whatever success looks like at this very early stage.

Axel: Yeah. Yeah.

Josua: And anything that maybe is kind of, you know, not non-intuitive that you didn’t know early on where you’re picking those investments and then you go, wow, this trade was actually like, really key to them.

Be able to get this far or maybe, you know, traits that do not lead success.

Axel: Yeah. I think all teams are different. Um, all teams are different. I mean, what, what, what, what happens all the time is, is kind of over optimistic. Timelines, which is, you know, natural and per se, um, is, is is not a bad thing. It’s kind of by design in, in this industry, but it kind of leads to problems, um, [00:49:00] when, when, when you, you know, miss targets, uh, by, by, you know, very large factors because it kind of impacts your fundraising as well, so.

I, I think the usual, you know, things, what you say is a kind of good founder is right? It’s got big visions and, you know, it’s speed. And to me it’s also, um, having kind of realistic, whatever that means, kind of expectations on, on the, on what you can achieve, you know, with the resources that you have right now and in the trajectory you are on, uh, this kind of delusional.

Um, view of where you are, it won’t work out ever. I think. So you need to be at the same time, you know, bold and big and beautiful. Um, but, but you also need to understand kind of [00:50:00] exactly where you are right now. And it’s, it’s difficult. I mean, people are always kind of, it’s, it’s more hope than, than, than, you know, knowledge in many cases, which is, you know.

Part of it. But I think those that are kind of grounded and understand, you know, how to spend your limited resources to get, you know, to realistic milestones and it’s, you know, the nitty gritty grinding, uh, is, is I think what gets, uh, gets people there in the long run.

Josua: Hmm. Hmm. So you gotta, you, you can’t just be in it for the, the rich, the fame and the rich and the glory.

You gotta love the, the process.

Axel: I, I think you have to love the process. And you have to love the problem. I mean, it’s, it’s, uh, it it, yeah. It’ll never work out if you, if you somehow think about the, if you day one, think about the exit, it’s, it’s going to be difficult to road.

Josua: Yeah.

Axel: But it’s obviously our job to think about exit.

I mean,

Josua: yeah.

Axel: And, uh, it, it, it’s, it’s, um. It feels [00:51:00] weird at some, you at points when you go very early in and, and you start talking about, you know, exit paths. Mm-hmm. But, but it, it, it makes you also, it’s good to do that because it, it, it makes you, you know, get a view on the positioning in the market, you know, on the competition.

Yeah. Who could just fit in with et cetera, even though it’s, you know, very far away at that point in time.

Josua: Yeah. And I guess, I mean, your background with the, with s is very helpful there because you. I mean, you know, those type of companies may be one of the acquire acquirers and you know, what they, why, what they need to see.

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: In order to be interesting, uh, or interested in buying. Um, let’s wrap up here with a couple, like personal question. Um, one thing, what, what’s one important thing that you’ve changed your mind about recently, you know, related to business investing or life in general?

Axel: Yep. Um, we. Have an a, a a portfolio company.

Not, not going into the, into [00:52:00] details, but I think it’s, you, you tend to want to, um, look at optics, uh, uh, uh, at, at, at, at, at times. And you tend to think that everything needs to fit the certain mold. Um, um, and I, I, I was kind of very bullish on, you know. Um, getting new people in as well, uh, who have, you know, the experience, who Mm, who’ve seen it.

Um, and then, you know, realizing that the kind of, the, the strength of the team of the company was actually, uh, you know, exactly in how they were doing business right now. And I think that this. Kind of, they are all different, you know, the strengths, the teams, the specific situation, the specific company.

They’re always different. And, and trying to kind of break that by trying to force in, you know, uh, people with a, you know, the, the CB is polished, you know, they’ve done it [00:53:00] before. Uh, and that was a situation that I, you know, clearly changed my mind on. I had first this, you know, let’s kind of, you know, push.

Boom, you know, all the people in and they’re gonna gonna grow big. And then, and then actually kind of realizing that, you know, the strength was exact exactly how it is right now. It’s difficult to see it from the, from the cvs, but the kind of the, the, the team, you know, spirit and how far they’ve come.

With exactly what they have right now.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: That’s the kind of whole DNA of the company. So trying to kind of change the DNA of the company, uh, just because, you know, that’s the way they should kind of look. Mm-hmm. These teams is Yeah.

Josua: I think that’s, that’s very true. Right. ’cause these, especially early on, these organizations, teams are very fragile.

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: It can be like, the dynamic that they built Yeah. Is very crucial. And they built relationship with that specific key customer. Yeah. And yeah. And those things are really hard to put down on paper and, and really, you know. Um, do you have any contrarian beliefs, leadership, [00:54:00] business investing that most of your peers would, would disagree with?

Probably disagree with?

Axel: Well, I mean, I think we are our whole, you know, thematically part of it is contrarian in our way. You know, we are building businesses for the, that are going to take time to scale.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Axel: You know, venture always been, you know, scale, you know, day one, uh, you know, uh, explosive growth.

Josua: Hmm.

Axel: We are never gonna see that in our, in our portfolio. It’s going to be built over time. Um, and, uh, it’s going to be a long journey. Um. But, uh, we believe that’s, that’s the way you kind of build, you know, durable, durable businesses that have, you know, very high kind of quality of earnings, uh, in a way at, at the end.

Um, so I think in itself that is a little bit not, I mean, nowadays it’s, again, it’s a little bit trendy not to do hardware and, and to be industrial and suddenly, you know, all the. Um, [00:55:00] sustainability focused VCs are now suddenly, you know, resilience focused or defense. Uh, the industry changes all the time.

It

Josua: was

Axel: a short gap between sustainability

Josua: and defense.

Axel: Turns out. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, but so, um, so it’s, it is more trendy now, but I think, I mean, that was a, I mean, it was two and a half years ago, so it’s not like we have. We had this crystal ball 10 years ago, but I think we, I mean, we genuinely, you know, believe what we are investing in and we’re genuinely excited and, and we, you know, we, we really think that, you know, this is an, an interesting area.

Um, but now, yeah, it’s getting more trendy. But I think in a way it is fundamentally contrarian on, on kind of how we think, uh, about vc.

Josua: Yeah. Agreed. Um, final question, I think, I don’t know, I guess for a lot of people, DC and investing is kinda a very exciting job. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and maybe, you know, kind of what we talked about in the very beginning, like they don’t [00:56:00] realize all the grind it takes, but you know, it looks interesting.

You get to be at, on the other side of the table making decisions following companies, you know, having success, making deals, and then IPOs and all that. Yes. Anyway, so I think a lot of people think that it’s exciting and they would want to get into it somehow. Mm-hmm. Um. When you look back and you think about your career consulting, then, you know, PE and LDC, um, and there’s, for you, there was that red thread of the industrial angle.

Mm-hmm. But when you think back, is there anything that you would’ve done differently, or, let me just phrase this in the question. In the, in kind of the mm-hmm. The angle of someone who would. As a maybe career advice Yep. To someone who would want to get into VC somehow, whether that’s, you know, as starting their own, which is quite difficult obviously, but maybe getting in on the, on, on, on, on some other way.

So yeah. Any, any advice or thoughts you have about that?

Axel: Yeah, I mean, maybe not VC in in specifically, but in in more general. I think my approach in early in my career was, you know, very technical. I wanted to be very good [00:57:00] at kind of what I do, uh, which, which is I guess, is a good thing. But, but what I’m trying to say is that I was very focused on just the product, just the kind of the work, um, and never about kind of how things look and, um, and, and, and how.

You know, the people that you, how do kind of people view you in a way? And I think now I realized, um, in, in Invent, specifically, now in venture, I guess it’s, uh, you are building a brand, you’re building a positioning. Um, so that’s kind of also in, in important, um, of building a little bit of a personal brand along the way, uh, and, and how you position yourself along the way.

And, and, and just, you know, meeting people, uh, you know, networking, uh, was something that I never, I’ve never done that kind of in a strategic way. Things just kind of unfolded in a way. Um,[00:58:00]

so I would, I, I would spend more time on. Uh, that part early on. Obviously it’s a balance. If you only do that, it’s kind of, you know, but kind of right. You need to be very good at what you do, uh, but you also need to kind of show that you know, you’re good at what you do in a way that, if that makes sense.

Josua: That, that makes a lot of sense. That is just. That. I feel like that was exactly me for the first 10 years. It was kind of head down.

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: Didn’t

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: Care about. Yeah. Didn’t, it didn’t come natural. I didn’t see the value in it.

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: Um, and then I realized, oh, actually that’s something I should be doing. And that’s actually how we met because we just,

Axel: yeah, yeah, yeah.

That’s why I’m here.

Josua: Yeah, exactly. So, and you know, but that’s not like a couple years ago, that’s not something I would’ve done. Yeah. I would not have taken the time to send cold emails and try to meet people for lunch. So I can, I totally, I am. I agree with that. Um, anyway, thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you. Best of luck with everything you got going on at Quant.

Axel: Thank you.

Josua: You know, existing portfolio, future investment, future potential funds.

Axel: Yep.

Josua: [00:59:00] Um, there’s a lot of, lot of exciting things happening and probably a lot of challenges as well, but that’s, that’s what it’s supposed to be. It’s supposed to be hard.

Axel: Yeah.

Josua: Yeah. Right.

Axel: There’s more to come.

Josua: More to come. So yeah, thanks for coming on and, and best of luck.

Axel: Thank you.