Lessons from building a 500M SEK consulting business

3 takeaways from the conversation with Pernilla Ramslöv

Loving Leadership Isn’t Fluffy, It’s Effective

Pernilla believes great leadership starts with a genuine interest in making others better. At NOX, this means building relationships, leading with empathy, and creating an environment of psychological safety. “People perform at their best when they feel seen, valued, and supported,” she says. Loving leadership isn’t about being soft, it’s about creating conditions where people thrive.

Culture Is a Competitive Advantage

From the beginning, NOX was built as a response to everything Pernilla felt was broken in traditional consulting. Instead of pushing bench consultants or relying on anonymous CVs, NOX focuses on relationships and community with freelancers, clients, and each other. Values like courage, responsibility, and amor (love) aren’t buzzwords at NOX. They’re practical tools used to guide decisions and drive growth.

The IT Industry Must Wake Up to Its Environmental Impact

Pernilla shared a powerful insight: the digital world isn’t as clean as it seems. From data centers to e-waste, the ICT sector is one of the fastest-growing sources of emissions. That’s why she co-founded CIO CO2, a network of 150+ tech leaders working to make IT more sustainable. Pernilla believes we need “sustainability of tech” as much as we need “sustainability with tech.”

Watch the episode:

Podcast transcript

Josua: [00:00:00] Uh, thank you so much for joining me. It’s, uh, it’s a pleasure to, to have you on and, uh, to be able to chat about your journey with Knox and, um, yeah, ai, sustainability, uh, growth and uh, and leadership. So welcome to the show.

Pernilla: Thanks for [00:00:15] having me. I’m looking forward to this conversation.

Josua: So, uh, before we get kind of started with the background, we’re recording this in beginning of February, 2025.

Josua: Mm-hmm. What are your feelings when you’re thinking about the year that, you know, we just left behind, we’re looking [00:00:30] ahead. What’s your kind of general sentiment?

Pernilla: Well, we, uh, we left, uh, a very tough year. 2024 was, was a tough year for the industry. I think a lot of. Uh, companies [00:00:45] had tough times and many of our colleagues went bankrupt and, and are no longer in business.

Pernilla: So, and a lot of companies have been struggling, to be honest. Uh, so, um, I’m actually very [00:01:00] happy to, to have a new year ahead of us. But, uh, at the same time, you can’t ignore the fact that there’s a lot of geopolitical instability. We have an ongoing [00:01:15] war in Europe. Uh, we have, uh, a war going on, uh, in terms of, uh, uh.

Pernilla: The US versus China. And so [00:01:30] there’s a lot of uncertainty, uh, in the world. But, uh, at the same time, I, I see there’s a lot of opportunity for, for doing good things. And I think it’s more important than ever that we really [00:01:45] gather the strong forces in the div and seeing what we can do to create the positive change in the world.

Josua: Absolutely. I, I, I share that combination of kind of their uncertainty with combined with [00:02:00] opportunity. I feel like that’s very, that’s very much, uh, how people feel. So, so let’s go back to, uh, well let’s start with, with Knox. So can you kind of explain what it is that you guys are doing and how this all came ab came [00:02:15] about?

Josua: Like what was the insight that led you to start the, start the business?

Pernilla: I will be more than happy to. And, and this is actually, we have to go back 14 years now. Uh, time flies when you have a good time. And, [00:02:30] um, I mean this all started, uh, as. You know, I came from the traditional consultancy industry. And then, um, after doing that, I, uh, uh, was a [00:02:45] part of starting, uh, an AI startup, uh, back in year 2000.

Pernilla: And, and during this time also, the big brokers had started to, uh, started to grow in [00:03:00] Sweden. So that was the basis of, of starting Knox and, and really seeing that I, I didn’t necessarily like the traditional consultancy company in how they ran their business and [00:03:15] how they always wanted to, uh, you know, sell.

Pernilla: Sell resources for a high price point where it was not necessarily, I mean, the most, [00:03:30] the best people that was sold, they more sold what was on the bench, uh, so to speak. And then the large brokers only sold, uh. A cv, they didn’t necessarily [00:03:45] know, uh, the person. And for me, uh, competence is, is so much more than, you know, just these acronyms.

Pernilla: It’s, it’s an individual, it’s a passion, it’s a driving force, [00:04:00] it’s a background, it’s a personality. It’s so many things. So that was the basis of Knox and, and Knox. Currently we are a big company in terms of the fact that we have more than 3,500 free freelancers in [00:04:15] our community, but we are still a small company with only 20 employees.

Pernilla: So we run quite a large business, but, uh, with a network of, uh, 3,500 amazing, uh, freelancers. [00:04:30] So, and, uh. So we sort of a mix. Uh, we decided to take, uh, the best from two worlds. So, uh, no employees, nobody that we have to sell. Uh, at the same time as the [00:04:45] consultants that we work with are consultants that we know.

Pernilla: So the ones that we bring on board, we do regular interviews, we have onboarding processes. And then we have opportunity [00:05:00] to get to know these people in so many different ways because we have created a community for these freelancers where we do anything from, you know, sales, marketing, competence development, social activities, [00:05:15] phone rooms, all of these things.

Pernilla: And, and all of these activities are really just to create what is core of. Not just business, but core from, from us human beings, which is relationships. [00:05:30] So, uh, and, and that’s how we get to know each other. So we work in a known capacity, uh, but with, you know, a a lot of, uh, a lot of competence in, uh, that we have available.

Pernilla: So, so that’s no [00:05:45] in a nutshell, and I mean, it’s, it’s a, a very wide specter, but within it.

Josua: And so the kind of, the focus on relationships was kind of maybe the key insight and that’s what you’ve been building on. Um, [00:06:00] I, I feel like, so is there anything, how have you been able to do it at scale? ’cause you’re talking about thousands of people.

Josua: Uh, how have you been able to do that at scale? Because I feel like a lot of companies would definitely benefit from emphasizing relationships more. I mean, I’m not talking even [00:06:15] about just consulting companies. I’m thinking about everyone who’s got customers and partners and. Employees and, and I feel like they could, they would do so, they would benefit so much by emphasizing relationships, by trying to build communities.

Josua: Um, so how have you guys been able to do that? [00:06:30] ’cause I, I, it’s, it’s, it’s a lot of work.

Pernilla: Yeah. Yeah. It is a lot of work. And, uh, but first of all, I think, I mean, relationships is. It’s not something that you can buy out of the box, it’s relationships is [00:06:45] something that you build over time. And, uh, the start of a relationship for me is always to start by giving.

Pernilla: Uh, and when you give, you get in return. And, um, [00:07:00] and also, uh, relationships also starts with. Being vulnerable and being genuinely interested in the other person. So, uh, how [00:07:15] we do this is that, I mean, in, in every kind of relationship you have to be the, an open person that is interested in, in the, in the person that you have.

Pernilla: In front of you, the person that you meet. Uh, [00:07:30] so that is a key. And, and seeing that person for everything that you know, all the positive things about that person. Uh, and uh, then, uh, when you [00:07:45] create these kinds of relationship that spreads. So if we are a partner that really take, take care of, of our consultants.

Pernilla: Other consultants also wants to [00:08:00] join. So, and then we have to have, uh. A packaging that where we can do one to many. So we can’t do, we cannot meet 3,500 people on a daily basis, [00:08:15] one-on-one. We have to create different kind of, uh, ways to. Generate value for these people. And this could be, you know, market analysis.

Pernilla: How should they think in terms of when [00:08:30] they create their cv? How, what kind of courses should they take If you are a scrum master? Scrum is not, uh, that hot anymore. What path should they take? Uh, how can we connect people? How [00:08:45] can we make, uh, data analysts talk to each other and create, share experiences and create insights together?

Pernilla: Uh, but also creating parties when these people just can meet [00:09:00] and interact with each other because a freelancer is on their own. And, and how can we create that we feeling of, of people that are normally not, uh, colleagues. So, [00:09:15] um, and I think, and, but the basis is really thinking about how we can create value and how we can see, uh, the individual and, and making sure that we are a part of [00:09:30] making them better.

Josua: Yeah, I mean, all the things you’re saying, I think for some people it can sound a bit wishy-washy, but this is like, this is like very, at the, at the core of like business sustainable, business success. Like it, there’s no conflict. [00:09:45] Um, relationships go such a long way.

Pernilla: They do. They do.

Josua: So, and, and I think it’s the same, same with

Pernilla: customers.

Pernilla: It, it is definitely the same with customers. And everything starts, I mean, pe people, the business with people, it’s [00:10:00] simple as that. And, uh, you know, sometimes we tend to forget about that and, and I don’t understand why.

Josua: Yeah. I, I, I, I totally, totally agree. Um, I’m always curious, but someone has been built a business from [00:10:15] the ground, uh, takes so much work.

Josua: To, to, I mean, even just going from like zero to one, you know, nevertheless, in your case to over high 500 million Swedish, uh, Swedish, Kuna. Um, what was the, what was like in the early days? Um, any kind of, I [00:10:30] mean, sure, I’m sure there was a lot of struggles and a lot of challenges, but anything that kind of stands out?

Pernilla: I think, I mean, when we started it was, uh, uh, me and a, and a former colleague. Uh, so we were two people. So it was two people and [00:10:45] two cell phones and two laptops. That was it. And I mean, at the beginning, just, you know, where do we have our meetings? Uh, was a challenge. And we started off, uh, having meetings at cafes and things like [00:11:00] that.

Pernilla: And, and then, you know, just finding ways and finding partnerships where we could, we could sit and we could have larger meetings. That was a, that was a big challenge to begin with. And, and, but we, what we [00:11:15] realized, you know, and this is also about, you know, trying to think out of the box. And because we started to have all of these consultants that wanted to work with us and wanted to join us, and we realized we cannot just meet one-on-one.

Pernilla: We have to do this, as you said, more at [00:11:30] scale. How can we do this? And uh, and then we came up with the idea that, wow, we have. Like at that time, I don’t know, 500, uh, extremely attractive. Uh, it consultants and, and [00:11:45] at this time, I mean, this was really attractive people, uh, to a number of companies that wanted to employ.

Pernilla: So what we did is we, we called, some of our customers said, would you guys like to be able to speak about what a [00:12:00] great employer you are to 500 of the most senior and, and the best, uh, it consultants in in the Stockholm Mart? I said, yeah, we would love to. And uh, and we met at, you know, at [00:12:15] the customer’s offices and, and they.

Pernilla: Paid for pizza and beer and, and, and we had a great event. And, you know, if one of, or two or you know, five consultants got, uh, employed. It was just great because then we, [00:12:30] we provided value to both the, the customers and the consultants. And in any case, these, you know, they, they got to meet and they started to share experiences.

Pernilla: So, uh, this was definitely one of the challenges that we solved that way. But, [00:12:45] and, and the other was, you know, building a brand from scratch. You know, we were just two individuals with, with the network, but there was no brand connected to it. And. We didn’t, we didn’t have, we had no [00:13:00] investment capital, uh, starting Knox.

Pernilla: So it was just two empty hands. Uh, and how do you build a brand then? Without, without any, uh, any, you know, financial [00:13:15] muscles. Uh, so what we did was. We need to stand for something. We need to have a big why, why we exist, and we wanted to bring something different into the [00:13:30] industry. Uh, a partner, a company that really cares for people and cares for, I mean, the, the greater good.

Pernilla: So. We did, uh, what we did was we, [00:13:45] we started an initiative each month where we shared, uh, our revenue to a project. You know, some, a sustainable project. Either it was, you know, saving the [00:14:00] rainforest or, uh. You know, killing cancer or, you know, whatever, you know, and, and then we started to talk about this. And this is why we exist.

Pernilla: We exist because we want to do good. We want to with, with everything that we [00:14:15] have, we want to do something better. And, and it worked. Not a lot of, uh, companies at that time were that progressive in how we talked about sustainability and wanting to, to be something better.[00:14:30]

Josua: Okay. I, I, I really like that. Is there anything, when you think back to the last 14 years, is there anything that you feel like, wow, I would’ve done that different? Or, or maybe I’d rephrase the question. If you were to do it again, you’d start a [00:14:45] new business, is there any major change that you’d kind of take, or would you, would you have pretty much the same approach?

Pernilla: Well, I think there are a number, a number of things that I would change, but, uh. Also, I [00:15:00] think it’s important to, to understand that, you know, from all the different things, all the mistakes that you do, all the, the bad decisions that you take, those also lead you into the good decisions. And, uh, [00:15:15] if you don’t try things you don’t know, but, and we’ve always been.

Pernilla: Our mindset has also always been just do it and, and try it and, but try it, uh, in a, in a small scale and then, [00:15:30] uh, learn from it. So I don’t think that we would’ve been where we, where we are today if we haven’t made those mistakes. Uh, so, but I think because maybe a, a very [00:15:45] important lesson is in terms of employees.

Pernilla: And, uh, that the most important thing when you employ people is that [00:16:00] you employ people that has the, the same values. And I, I want to be challenged in very many ways, but values is not one of the things that I want to be [00:16:15] challenged by. And I think. The, the times where we haven’t, where we had to go 2D part, uh, from, uh, um, an employee that we have, that we had in our company [00:16:30] is when the, the values were not, uh, connected.

Pernilla: So, uh, and there’s. So values and attitude is so important. I mean, most of the other things you can learn, but um, [00:16:45] those are things that is very difficult to change and I don’t want to be challenged by that.

Josua: Yeah, I I, I can imagine that’s like a, or it feels like that’s a pattern with, with a lot of.

Josua: Entrepreneurs business leaders, is that you’ve [00:17:00] learned the lesson that the people really matter. And getting the right people from the start is really key to anything else. ’cause otherwise you’re gonna, if you make a wrong hiring decision decision, you have to make a thousand decision to kind of make up for it.

Josua: Like you constantly have to, you know, but if you [00:17:15] make one right decision, it just takes care of everything else. Like they just, you know, the right people, they just get things done.

Pernilla: Yeah. And that’s so true.

Josua: Uh, the values, I mean, that’s obviously something that’s. I very much talked about, uh, I think still for a [00:17:30] lot of companies, I feel like it’s, it’s very, I mean, you, you have especially big companies, they define their values.

Josua: They, you know, it’s written down somewhere, but how do you actually, um, implement it so that it becomes a part of the, you know, every day, you [00:17:45] know, how you treat customers, how you treat each other, but also the recruitment process. How, how have you done it and how do you recommend companies should actually think about finding.

Josua: Values that are practical or, or just Yeah. Values that are lived inside the company.

Pernilla: Yeah. [00:18:00] And, and this is, comes down to culture and I think, uh, culture always exists in the company. Uh, either you create it or it is created and, uh, [00:18:15] and you really want to be in charge of, of the culture because that is something that, you know, sets.

Pernilla: The rules for everything then what you do in terms of daily business, how you do [00:18:30] things. And that comes down to you can then, you know, quantify that in the values. So, but I completely agree with you that, you know, I mean, a lot of large corporations, they have these, you know, the R three values and then or [00:18:45] four values and them.

Pernilla: Nobody, more or less, you know, if, if they remember them, they don’t understand what they mean and they have no idea how they’re implemented in, in the daily business. And I think this is, uh, it’s, it’s, the values are a great way of [00:19:00] really steering how you take every decision that you make on a daily basis.

Pernilla: So we have four, three, uh, value, four values in Knox, and it’s, uh, power, uh, [00:19:15] courage. Uh, responsibility and amor. Uh, so, and, um. We think about this more or less in in every decision that we take. So [00:19:30] how can we do this in a courageous way? What is a responsible way of answering this question? How can we treat this person that is.

Pernilla: Obviously angry or, uh, [00:19:45] frustrated. How can we treat that person with love? So, I mean, this is, it’s really incorporated in, in everything that we do. But also we need to think about the, the core values. Also, [00:20:00] as you know, you cannot always be. 100% responsible. Sometimes you like, where do we have, because if you do, if you are 100% responsible, then you know, sometimes I can go overboard.

Pernilla: Or if you are [00:20:15] 100% courageous, you know what happens. So sometimes we also need to, to think about this as a volume, uh, button, more or less. So, uh, where is the right volume for this [00:20:30] specific situation? But, um, no, it, they are very much involved in, in everything that we do at Knox.

Josua: Got it. Yeah. I, I think, I mean the, the, one of the famous [00:20:45] examples from, or values is Facebook’s, uh, move fast and break things.

Josua: And, and obviously like the, the, the good thing about that is it makes clear kind of like. You know, breaking things is not good, but moving fast is so important that it’s okay to break things. [00:21:00] Yeah. So I think when, when values become, when they give, like you said, when it comes part of the business and how everyday decisions are made and you actually empower employees and tell them like, hey, okay, let’s say, you know, example, we are a startup.

Josua: It’s really important for us that we are [00:21:15] innovating and growing. So it’s actually okay that there’s maybe some fires that we haven’t put out. Like you are, you are empowered to make decisions. The in pursuit of this goal, and you can neglect some of these other things. Not because they’re unimportant, but because they’re less important.

Pernilla: Yeah. [00:21:30] So I Exactly.

Josua: Yeah. It becomes actually like a, a, a, a way of, yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Pernilla: That’s what I mean with the volume button that sometimes you have to. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Josua: So, uh, the last one, amor, um, is that Italian or not? It’s [00:21:45] Italian. Italian. Yes. You’ve described your, uh, your leadership style as Chad, so loving leadership, um, in English.

Josua: Can you talk about like yeah. What, what, what does that mean and what does that for [00:22:00] you? What does that look like in, in, in practice? And is this something like just comes down to your personality, like you’re a very in loving person or is this something that someone could, um, could have kind of. Start using even though they don’t feel like [00:22:15] they’re a particularly loving leader.

Pernilla: Uh, well, first of all, I think that when you talk about this, a lot of people just feel that this is mabo jumbo and it’s, uh, fluffy and, [00:22:30] uh, it’s not anything has nothing to do with business. And, um. Sometimes it can be misinterpreted as you know, I’m a loving person and, you know, and it, it really is [00:22:45] for me, it’s extremely tied to business.

Pernilla: So, and what, you know, describing loving full leadership, you know, at the core is that you genuinely [00:23:00] are interested in making other people better. And, uh, so what is that? Uh. It is all about, you know, seeing each and, and every individual for [00:23:15] who they are. Seeing the positive thing in every individual, uh, recognizing, noticing people for.

Pernilla: For what they are and, and who they are and, and so forth. [00:23:30] And, and I really truly believe that. I mean, there are a million things that I’m crap at, uh, and I’m crap at it because I don’t enjoy doing it. And if I don’t enjoy doing it, I don’t practice. And if I don’t practice, I [00:23:45] don’t become good at it. But we all have been in situations where we get the feedback from, from our manager saying, well, you are great at.

Pernilla: At these four things and here’s, there’s room for improvement, and I just say, fuck, room for improvement. Why should I focus on the [00:24:00] things that I’m not good at? Uh, if we, if I can make my employees becoming fantastic at the things that are good at and. Just push them to do more of [00:24:15] that and they will flourish the organization and the company will flourish.

Pernilla: So just empowering and, and really, uh, putting emphasis on the positive things. [00:24:30] People become more productive and they feel more empowered and they will do more and, and the company will, will. You know, grow, uh, and be much more successful. It’s simple. It’s [00:24:45] so awkward that, you know, we all know that people have basic needs, needs, like, you know, food and drink, uh, uh, and sex and all those things, but also being seen for who you are, being [00:25:00] recognized for, for the things that I’m good at, but for some weird reason.

Pernilla: You know, people, uh, managers feel like when, when an individual walks into the office, all of a sudden you are [00:25:15] interested in, uh, completely other things. Like, uh, I, I am, I am interested in making my quota, or, you know, it’s not the things that, you know, if you just look at what people was important for people, then [00:25:30] the basic needs, and if you can fill those basic needs.

Pernilla: You will have people that will outperform their capabilities. It’s simple. So for me, loving for leadership [00:25:45] is the key to create successful companies.

Josua: I, I, I really, I really resonate with that. I feel like. There’s this, A lot of people think that when they go into the [00:26:00] workplace, they have to change somehow.

Josua: Both like individual contributors and managers and there’s all these best practices and there’s this way you should talk and there’s, you know, you have to essentially put on a a, yeah, like you said, you forget a lot of the [00:26:15] basic stuff that we know to be true. But then we assume that they don’t apply in the workplace when we’re all human.

Pernilla: Yeah.

Josua: Uh, that’s crazy. And there’s so

Pernilla: much, it’s so, there’s so much science saying that the number one, uh, [00:26:30] thing to make people, uh, perform at their best, it’s psychological 50.

Josua: Yeah. Um, I, I want to get, sorry. Yeah. I want to, I wanna get to the psychological safety. I just wanna make a comment because I was [00:26:45] literally talking to, uh, someone about this like two hours ago.

Josua: Uh, about what it’s like when you, like when you said when someone wants you to get better, you can feel it. Like, you can sense when that person is like, genuinely wants you to get better. Yeah. Not just because of, you know, they [00:27:00] want you to perform so they can hit their numbers. Like they care about you, they’re invested in you.

Josua: You can feel it, whether it’s in a. Personal relationship or work relationship. So I think if you take that approach, people are gonna feel it and they’re gonna respond to it.

Pernilla: Absolutely. [00:27:15] Absolutely.

Josua: Okay. Psychological safety. Um, that was really good. I had that as one of the, the next topic to, to talk about.

Josua: So, um, yeah, basically how, how do, how do you do it? I, I think it’s, it, my experience is I see a, I’ve, I’ve seen a lot [00:27:30] of places where I think where I, I, my opinion, they’re, they, they don’t have that psychological safety. Um, I think maybe a lot of those places would not even be aware that there’s an issue.

Josua: Um, they, they don’t, they don’t, I mean, it’s nothing that it, it’s not a, like [00:27:45] a giant elephant or something that you can point to. It’s just, it’s just a lack of, it’s a lack of something that, that it, yeah. I, so I, I think here it’s so important, but it’s so still difficult, even maybe in companies or [00:28:00] organizations where they try to achieve it.

Josua: So how do you think about it? How do you. Try to create it.

Pernilla: Well, first of all, um, we need to recognize that people are different and, uh, and different is good. [00:28:15] Uh, the more perspectives we have on something, the better we become, the better decisions we can take. Uh, and that’s a sort of a basic idea that you have to just, [00:28:30] yeah, you just have to feel that, uh, and, um.

Pernilla: And the people get, uh, it’s okay to be who you are. You are, you are loved for who you are. You are here because you are, you, [00:28:45] uh, you don’t have to take, put on a mask or play a role. Uh, I think that’s, that’s super important. The other thing is about making mistakes and, uh. [00:29:00] We all make mistakes. I make so many mistakes all the time.

Pernilla: And, uh, mistakes makes us grow, uh, both as individuals and as as a team. So, and. [00:29:15] We have to just remove that, you know, thing of that. You know the thing people often say it’s okay to make mistakes, but you can only make the same mistake [00:29:30] once. It’s like, what? Then people get afraid of making the same mistake over again.

Pernilla: Uh, just remove that whole thing and say that mistakes are good. We learn from mistakes. Mistakes makes us grow. Embrace them. [00:29:45] We talk about it as experiences rather than mistakes. And the more experience that we have, uh, in our backpack, the better we will have, better we will be to meet the challenges of tomorrow.

Pernilla: And as a [00:30:00] leader, I have to be the first one saying, I made a mistake and this is what I learned from it. The other thing about this is that we also feel that when we do some, I mean [00:30:15] it’s, it’s not, I don’t have to solve my mistakes on my own. There’s a team. Everybody will, you know. Roll up their sleeves and say, let’s, let’s face this one together.

Pernilla: You are never [00:30:30] alone. We are a team and I have implemented a bonus structure within Knox where nobody is incentive on their own work because we know that teamwork is what helps us [00:30:45] and never feeling alone in, in anything, uh, really helps that. And the third thing is back to loving for leadership is tough love.[00:31:00]

Pernilla: And if we can talk about things that you know didn’t necessarily go our way, or if you know somebody. We don’t, we don’t always do things that are right. [00:31:15] Sometimes we have hard times, you know, talking. There are conflicts between people and so forth. That’s just, you know, a rule of life when it happens, but we have to be able to talk about it and nothing is too [00:31:30] bad or, or too difficult to talk about.

Pernilla: We just have to learn to talk about it in a good way. And, uh. If I go into such a discussion, it’s a huge [00:31:45] difference. If I go into such a discussion with my mind thinking I should correct this person, you did something wrong, uh, and I don’t like you, or whatever. Or if I go into that discussion with a [00:32:00] feeling of.

Pernilla: I want to make you better. I want to make us better. I want to understand I have a warm and open mind to the discussion. It’s a huge difference and it’s also a [00:32:15] huge difference of how the other person interpret the, the, the discussion and how we can move forward. So those are a few of the. The jig sauce to, [00:32:30] uh, to how I think you can work with psychological safety.

Pernilla: Yes. But it’s super important because without it, it’s, it is more or less impossible to be successful. [00:32:45]

Josua: Yeah. And I mean, especially when it comes to like a knowledge, knowledge work, but it’s all about people and, and yeah. Them having to show up and give their. Give their all. Like, you can’t, you can’t force that.

Josua: You can’t. They have to do it themselves. It has to be internal.

Pernilla: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. [00:33:00]

Josua: So those were really good, good practical things. Do you, how are you like, uh, you mentioned the, the tough love and the conversations, and I think that’s, I think a, I would imagine that everyone listening, listening to this, [00:33:15] especially if they’re in a management position.

Josua: You know, if they take one second, they’re like, they can think of at least one uncomfortable conversation that they know that they should be having with someone on their team or something like that. And they’re just procrastinating it, you know? Yeah. Um, so how, how have you personally, [00:33:30] have you just, is it just practice?

Josua: You gotta get the reps in, you just gotta do it? Or if

Pernilla: you think about it, uh, so if you have a, an employee that you don’t think, uh, is performing, uh, the way you want them to, or [00:33:45] you have, you think that. That person has done something bad. What is the most loving, full thing you can do? Is it, uh, ignoring it?

Pernilla: And don’t saying to that person [00:34:00] but me going around thinking, ah, that’s, that’s was shitty job. Or even worse, uh, this situation that was created. It affects more people in the organization and then [00:34:15] the colleagues start to talking badly behind the back about this person. Uh, what is the most loving, full thing you can do?

Pernilla: It’s of course [00:34:30] talking to that person and saying the truth, but you have to do it in a way where you do it with love. But because not saying it is so, I mean, it’s so [00:34:45] unloving for, it’s so unfair. Uh. You definitely don’t create a good atmosphere in the organization. Having people starting to backstabbing people or back talking people that’s really [00:35:00] putting a, you know, a wet blanket on the entire organization, and that’s not an organization where you can foster growth and foster innovation.

Josua: For sure. I mean these, yeah. So if you are

Pernilla: interested in your business, [00:35:15] just take, take on and, and that, and have that tough lab conversation.

Josua: For sure. And I feel like a lot of business, I dunno, problems or challenges or business potential could be unlocked by people just becoming [00:35:30] better at interpersonal dynamics, relationships, communication in general.

Josua: Like there’s, there’s a lot of potential there.

Pernilla: Definitely.

Josua: Um, okay. Let’s switch gears a little bit and talk about sustainability. [00:35:45]

Pernilla: Mm-hmm.

Josua: I, I feel at least from, from someone who’s not working in the IT industry, um, it doesn’t really kind of strike you that this is an industry that actually pollutes or has, you know, contributes submissions.

Josua: You don’t [00:36:00] really think about it that way. Maybe not with ai, you can talk about that. But you’ve had, you, you, you mentioned you’ve had this like. Really illustrative example of the kind of thank you emails in the UK and, uh, coal, coal power, power plant. So could you kind [00:36:15] of explain the, the lot or the, the story there to get illustrate?

Pernilla: Yeah. So, and uh, this was actually four years ago. Uh, the, what really triggered my. What, what, you know, somebody was [00:36:30] like, somebody turned on the lights for me. Uh, was that, you know, somebody told me, uh, that it was more sustainable to send a, uh, a physical postcard than to send a digital postcard. [00:36:45] And I was like, come on, that can’t be true.

Pernilla: And of course that’s not true unless you send a movie of the family dancing around the Christmas tree and you send that in a high resolution [00:37:00] file to as an attachment to 20 friends. Well of course then it’s more sustainable to, to send the physical postcard. And this was like when I realized this and I started to think about this.

Pernilla: This was like. You know, [00:37:15] Hmm. What are we really doing in the IT industry? You know, everything is like these ones and zeros and they are on my computer, and then they are in a backup and they’re on the server and it’s like, [00:37:30] and I just realized like, wow, what is this? And uh, since I’m a. An engineer, I’m a nerd.

Pernilla: And, uh, and I really started to, I, I just like, [00:37:45] I need to understand this. So I started to read a number of articles on this and I, my head was starting to spin around and I was like, I need to understand this. So what I did was I gathered, uh, 10 [00:38:00] CIOs in my network and I was like, Hey guys, have you thought about this?

Pernilla: And. Some of them had, but you know, at a very minimum scale it may be, [00:38:15] you know, how long do I have my phone and how do we work with data centers and so forth. But none of them had thought about this at scale because it has been a blind spot, uh, when we talk about [00:38:30] sustainability for a very long time. And, uh, but you know, with the speed of technology development now, the ICT industry is the [00:38:45] fastest growing climate really, you know, industry that we have.

Pernilla: So, um. We really need to start thinking about this. And when I realized this, I [00:39:00] also, you know, made up my mind we are a part of the problem. We also have to be a part of the solution. So that’s when I, together with the, the, the CIOs and, and I. You know, grabbed onto a few, uh, colleagues. [00:39:15] We, we decided to start this initiative that we call CIO CO2.

Pernilla: So chief Information Officer, uh, carbon dioxide. Um. So this was four years ago that we started the initiative. And, uh, since then, now [00:39:30] we have, uh, more than 150 CIOs join the, the network. We have 300 member companies we are running, uh. You know, conferences, workshops, uh, and so forth. Uh, [00:39:45] you know, on a regular basis we have, you know, we are supporting companies in creating their sustainable analysis from an IT perspective.

Pernilla: So, uh, it’s really grown to be from a, from a PET project to be a, [00:40:00] a, a kind of large, uh, undertaking.

Josua: That, that’s awesome. What, what do you think about, you know, now with ai, you’ve got the Stargate project in the us um, and obviously [00:40:15] China is investing heavily and there’s gonna be a, a big demand, I’m guessing, for compute, and it’s gonna be very energy, uh, require a lot of energy.

Josua: So how are you, like, how are we even gonna solve this as a, as [00:40:30] a society? Do you think that, is there enough? Um, and is there maybe an opportunity for the Nordic countries, uh, uh, when it comes to, let’s say, sustainable IT infrastructure that I’m very, like, I don’t, I know very little about this, so it’s kind of a, [00:40:45] maybe a dumb question.

Josua: So

Pernilla: there a lot of, a lot of questions at the same time. But, um, just to, to just back, uh, one step, uh, I mean the, the, the really, uh, if you come down to it, it’s the, there are two problems. It’s, it’s [00:41:00] energy and it’s hardware. So, and currently, and this is, you know, the figures is, you know, we don’t really know because there’s too science behind this, but, you know, in the area of 10% of the [00:41:15] global energy consumption comes from the I CT sector.

Pernilla: Uh, which is, if you, if you compare that to, uh, carbon emissions and greenhouse gases, it’s like. 3%, which is equal to the, through the airline [00:41:30] industry. So, and this is by, you know, this is growing, uh, logarithmically, uh, and hardware is. Both in terms of producing hardware, it, it’s a big, big problem [00:41:45] where, you know, mining for precious metals and so forth and, and the production of all the, uh, electronics that we are using, but also at the end of the life cycle where we, the world produces [00:42:00] 62 billion tons of, uh, e-waste every year.

Pernilla: And that’s more than. Uh, what the entire Great Wall of China weighs. So it is a big problem. So for anyone who doesn’t think that, you know, it’s [00:42:15] time to open your eyes and, and realize this. And, uh, coming, talking about ai. So when open ai, uh, they, uh, started a new. Uh, data center [00:42:30] in North Carolina, uh, you know, at the end of 2024, uh, just that one data center required that a, uh, prolonged the life [00:42:45] of 10.

Pernilla: Coal plants for another 10 years, and that’s just one data center in the US They have 5,873 data [00:43:00] centers and they are creating them, building them on mass. And you know, not to mention Stargate. And the problem with this is the fact that what you’re mentioning. In the US there’s very little green, uh, [00:43:15] energy in the, in the grid.

Pernilla: So is this an opportunity for, for the Nordics? I’m sorry, I’m, I’m, I have to, you know, talk to, to get to a real question. Yeah, it was, [00:43:30] it was a long question. Uh, yes, of course this is an opportunity for the Nordics because we have. Uh, very much green energy mix in, in the grid. And, uh, we are very good at [00:43:45] building, uh, data centers that is truly green.

Pernilla: Uh, so there is, there’s a lot of opportunity and. But the other side of, of the, the coin, [00:44:00] if you will, is that, you know, we, you know, using AI creates a lot of, um, problems from a, from a climate perspective, but on the other hand. We [00:44:15] need, we need ai. We need technology in order to solve the the big challenges that we have, both from a climate perspective and from a society perspective.

Pernilla: So. Really, uh, we can’t [00:44:30] go back. Uh, and we don’t want to go back 75 years because before the, we started to really pollute the, the planet on a massive scale. Nobody wants to go back 75 years. Uh, [00:44:45] so we need to, with technology, with an AI to build these exponential climate solutions, that’s our from, at least from my perspective.

Pernilla: That’s our only path forward. [00:45:00] So, uh, but we have to be able to have two thoughts in our minds at the same time, we need, uh, to build solutions, to use it, to build sustainability by it, but we need to think about how we [00:45:15] build these solutions. So sustainability of it. Okay. So that would be my, my preach.

Josua: That was a, that was a very good answer.

Josua: I think, like you said, there’s a, I mean there’s, so there’s [00:45:30] kind of, um, there’s, there’s a tension there and there’s gonna be, I think it’ll be really interesting to see what the next 10 years are gonna look like. Um, a lot of, a lot of challenges, a lot of opportunity. Um, while we’re on the topic of ai, you, you work in the IT [00:45:45] consulting industry.

Josua: And, you know, I mean, you, you do, I’m, you know, based on what, what I’ve understood. I mean, you do a really broad, broad range of kind of consulting, uh, consultants in your network. But you know, when I, uh, no. Well, you know, a few [00:46:00] years ago, um, or yeah, it used to, you people used to say that learning to, learning to code was the way that you’d kind of future proof.

Josua: Um, because he, like you said, I mean the, IT industry has been growing for, uh, last few decades, like very rapidly and high [00:46:15] paying jobs. And, you know, there’s been like, supply has been, demand has been much higher than supply for all this time. And, and you’ve got, you know, so, so that’s been kind of the, the mantra.

Josua: And now with I, with ai, these AI tools are becoming or [00:46:30] are already like super, super powerful. So how are you thinking about AI impacting your industry? Um, is it, is it just, is it gonna increase it still, like more people are just gonna be enabled to become some kind of IT consultants, or are we [00:46:45] gonna see a reduction in the number of consultants needed and they’re just gonna become much more, uh, effective?

Josua: The ones that are, are using AI to, to do their work? Or how do you do, yeah. How do you think about this, like AI impact on, on labor in, in your industry? [00:47:00]

Pernilla: Uh, I think we can, uh. You know, maybe it’s a painful truth, but there will be a lot of work that is going to a lot of labor work that is going to be completely [00:47:15] eliminated by ai.

Pernilla: So including, including software developers. Uh, so will AI take our jobs? Definitely. Will there be other jobs created? Definitely. So, [00:47:30] uh, and this is true for, you know, any, you know, revolution if you will. Uh, so some jobs will disappear, new job jobs will be created. So, um, [00:47:45] yeah, and you just need to stay curious.

Josua: Yeah, it’s, it’s, I mean, it’s so interesting because it’s, at the same time, it’s like very interesting and fascinating and I think anyone who doesn’t say that they’re [00:48:00] a little bit scared or con not concerned about this change of pace. Um, or the pace of change. Excuse me. I think they’re lying. Like it’s, it’s pretty.

Josua: What, what’s your perspective, because you mentioned in the beginning you’ve, you got involved with ai like [00:48:15] over, over, what is it, 15, 20 years ago with the first project, 20, 20

Pernilla: years ago.

Josua: 25 years. So AI then, I mean, was your machine learning at that point, or, or how, how was it? It

Pernilla: was actually. You know, it was more rule based languages and more of a, [00:48:30] you know, detecting anti-patterns, uh, rather than anything else.

Pernilla: Yeah.

Josua: So you’ve seen this kind of evolution. Were you as surprised as, I feel like the whole world was when chat DPT was released, or did you kind of, were you paying attention and, [00:48:45] and expecting this AI to, to be

Pernilla: the rollout to be so

Josua: quick?

Pernilla: I mean, it’s, it’s going, I mean the, the adoption of technology and the, uh, evolution of technology is going [00:49:00] at, you know, at a pace that, you know, I don’t, I don’t, it’s even, it’s so difficult to grasp actually.

Pernilla: And, you know, I’m trying to stay on top of, of AI news and I listen to AI news more or less, uh, you know, on a daily basis. [00:49:15] But it’s going at, you know, at the speed of lightning. So, you know, I had. I didn’t think that it would, you know, go that fast. Uh, it took two months for chat GBT to reach a hundred [00:49:30] million, uh, users.

Pernilla: Uh, it, it’s re it’s extremely fast and, um, yeah. So it, it, it, I, you know, I, I [00:49:45] don’t think really that, that us humans are geared for this, uh, for this kind of, of, of development change or evolution change. But, uh, yeah,

Josua: no, it feels a bit [00:50:00] dizzying for sure. Yeah, and I think it’s so interesting, like with ai, you know, the question of where the.

Josua: Economic value is gonna accrue, because, you know, I think about the, the large language models, like just a few years ago, if any company would’ve gotten their [00:50:15] hands on that, that would’ve been like this super valuable asset. And now they’re open source, so basically free. So it’s, it’s just, I think that’s incredible.

Pernilla: Yeah. Yeah. But also we need to, we need to think about [00:50:30] what’s free, uh, because, uh. What people may not realize is that we pay with other things, we pay with our data, we pay with our integrity. And, [00:50:45] and those things are potentially a much higher price than, you know, paying in money.

Josua: For sure, for sure. Um, I think we’re coming at the end here.

Josua: Uh, so, you know. Lots, [00:51:00] lots of complex topics we covered here with, with sustainability and energy needs and, and ai. Um, any, any kind of, uh, I, I asked that question maybe in the beginning, but you know, after, now that we’ve had a conversation, like, what are you, what are you paying [00:51:15] most attention to? Is, is it AI or, or any other kind of trends.

Pernilla: Uh, AI is definitely, uh, on the top of my thing, uh, of my list of things. But I think the important thing, and, and this is something that I, you know, wanna share with, you know, any, [00:51:30] every, every leader out there is you, we have to stay curious. We have to stay courageous and, and try things, uh, because it’s the only way, and that is something that [00:51:45] I think is.

Pernilla: It’s scary. I think most of of the companies today have, uh, very few tech savvy people, uh, in the management team and in the, in the board of directors. [00:52:00] And currently, whether we like it or not, the, uh, the world is developing and, and is ruled by technology in many ways. And, and so it’s super important that we are.

Pernilla: [00:52:15] We are curious about this. We don’t, we don’t have to become developers, but we have to be curious about technology. And we have to realize that technology and AI is, is tools that we have to use in order to make our businesses stay [00:52:30] alive. Because if we don’t, somebody else will, will take our position. So what I usually say is, you know, either get on the bus or you might under the bus, uh.

Pernilla: So I think that’s, um, [00:52:45] you know, stay curious, stay, uh, stay courageous, but also stay healthy, uh, in terms of, you know, mind and, and thinking about what’s important and thinking about, you know, [00:53:00] the human aspect of this and how you can treat people with, with love

Josua: for sure. I think, I think that’s a way good.

Josua: Way to summarize our conversation, this technology, which [00:53:15] is changing so fast. And then you’ve got the thing that doesn’t really change, which is human nature and the importance of like, relationship and community. Um, pan, thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s been a pleasure to talk to you. For people who wanna follow you, [00:53:30] follow maybe the, the projects that you’re working on, whether it’s Knox or CIO, uh, CO2, or anything else, what’s the best way to connect?

Pernilla: I think the best way is LinkedIn. You can just, you know, find me on LinkedIn. I’m easy. There is only one per ramstad in the world, [00:53:45] uh, or, you know, go to the website. But that’s, that’s the easy way.

Josua: Perfect. I’ll put a link. Uh, we’ll put a link in the show notes, uh, to your LinkedIn. Uh, like I said, thank you so much and, uh, wish you and the team best of luck with [00:54:00] everything that you’ve got, uh, going on this year.

Pernilla: Thank you so much. It was a, a fantastic conversation. I really enjoyed it.

Josua: Thank you.

Pernilla: Take care.