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Episode #40

HMD Global, the company behind Nokia phones, is changing the smartphone market. We talked with CMO Lars Silberbauer about the “dumbphone” trend, HMD’s unique approach to sustainability, competing against the likes of Apple and Samsung, and more.

This post is based on our podcast episode with Lars Silberbauer, the CMO of HMD Global. You can watch the entire conversation here.

1. Thinking long-term

Silberbauer emphasizes the importance of treating the Nokia brand differently across various regions due to varying levels of brand affinity. In regions where Nokia has stronger brand recognition, they leverage this to their advantage, while they’re also working to launch a line of phones under their own brand. This strategic brand diversification allows HMD Global to address market-specific needs more effectively.

2. Agility as a competitive advantage

Lars discusses how HMD Global has integrated AI and other digital tools into their operations, significantly enhancing efficiency and creativity. By adopting these technologies swiftly, they’ve been able to outpace larger competitors who may be slower in adapting to such changes. This agility is a key competitive advantage for HMD Global in the fast-paced tech industry.

3. HMD’s approach to sustainability

Silberbauer highlights HMD Global’s focus on sustainability and creating products that last longer. This approach goes against the industry norm of encouraging frequent upgrades. Their efforts in manufacturing phones that are easily repairable and sustainable resonate with a growing consumer base that values environmental responsibility. Additionally, their strategy to manufacture closer to their markets (like in Europe and India) aligns with consumer preferences for locally made products and addresses geopolitical and privacy concerns.

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Watch episode: Challenging the smartphone industry with HMD Global CMO Lars Silberbauer

Challenging the smartphone industry – Youtube transcript

today I’m joined by Lars silverbow the CMO of HDM Global HDM is a company that currently makes manufactures and sells Nokia smart forms around the world Lars previously held key marketing positions at the international Olympic Committee Viacom and Lego welcome to your show Lars thank Joining HMD you thank you so much you joined hmd last year from from the international Olympic Committee and I’d be interested to know kind of like what was your thought process first of all what attracted you to joining hmd and what was your thought process in going in to kind of take the marketing lead on what used to be a top five Global brand like Nokia like everyone used to be the most valuable company in Europe uh incredibly incredibly successful huge Legacy so what was your kind of like thinking uh What attracted you to position and how were you thinking about like the the role that you were stepping into it’s really good really good question because of course you you have a lot of considerations when taking new positions and when when when making a big move especially when that uh evolves a relocation as well so so it’s not to not to go into my full life story but I was a few years New York working for for vacom which is now rebranded to to Paramount um I was sen president over there during the pandemic um then I was two years at the Olympic um ioc and we did the the Tokyo Summer Olympics and the baiting Winter Olympics and like with all respect to the ioc it’s a it’s a quite political place it’s a quite um slow moving organization and and uh even though the Olympics are fantastic and like some people are running very fast the movement as such is is is quite political so so I I had my my my learnings there and uh and wanted to move into to to a startup which which hmd is is really it is really a startup um I had a mentor like way back many years ago who said like that that would be my obvious uh next step into startup that should be like a medium-sized startup and that’s what I saw when I I was approached by hmd uh um it’s a it was a completely new industry for me like I haven’t worked in in in mobile tech before and been been but I’ve been through Lego like toy industry been to entertainment um been to Sports Marketing and uh for me there was a a quite interesting challenge to to take on a completely new industry and and with a startup that’s been and the last year has been incredibly fast moving uh and it’s been it’s been absolutely exciting what were you did you already have like when you were first approached and and when we first got started did you immediately have kind of like oh this is this is the direction that I want to help take the brand this this these are the initiatives that I want to work on these are the strategies that I’m going to start implementing or how did that how did you get to formulate kind of what you’re going to be doing your priorities as you were stepping into like you said a completely new industry and and in a very fast moving company well I try to um because I’ve done this quite a few times now as like I was join I joined Lego to help build up the digital presence uh I moved to MTV uh at at vom to really change their the production model and the way that they perceived the MTV digital business from a TV centered uh way of thinking the mindset into a digital mindset and then again with the Olympics where we made some some some massive uh uh massive progress on on the way that the brand was was thought of the way they was communicating um then and the way I have a I have like if I wouldn’t say a method but it’s it’s definitely a structured approach to to those challenges and and it’s first and foremost you you can’t understand the brand DNA before you get into the business and you can have all kinds of uh dreams and hopes and wishes and plans but before you you get you get your feet inside the company and start working with the stakeholders start understanding the history uh the core of the brand DNA um I I wouldn’t I think it would be be um uh very risky to make too many conclusions before we actually get to understand it so so what do typically is I I I try to I I’m often getting hired to to do a transformation and do a do a a change in the company and for me to change a company you first need to stop everything that’s that is not helpful or that is that is not needed uh really to to carb out time and space Resources with everyone in the company so they can actually take on a challenge that that is change because if you don’t do that then you just put another layer on top of what people are already working on already really busy with and then they’re they’re actually like they’re not in a good place and they can’t really um facilitate they can’t really like get into that that change that need to happen so you need to stop a lot of things and sometimes you also need to unfortunately make make make some people redundant uh but that’s you need to have that that room before you can actually start building change and start helping facilitate change in the company got it I I thought that was interesting point that you mentioned that you can’t really understand it from the outside you have to get inside to do it Nokia’s brand power and cultural significance at at the same time some of the compan experiences you’ve had Lego uh the Olympics MTV I mean these are global companies really very heavily ingrained with culture and content and so as as you know you probably had some ideas like how do you see how did you see noia theia brand fitting into the overall culture which in my mind has been dominated by um by Apple and Apple has turned the phone into from something that’s very much focused on utility so also not being an accessory of course there’s a whole other segments with with feature phones and so forth but how did you think about like the culture content and how Nokia fits in with with uh what’s happening and how people are thinking about phones I think um the power of of of noia is very different the the Brand Power is very different from uh different regions and depending on which regions you’re in where it’s uh it doesn’t hold a lot of of of brand power outside the feature fil space in Europe where in other parts of the world like India um Mena uh Africa like South Africa is really strong market for us there is still like a lot of affinity around the the Nokia brand so it’s it’s it’s been a very um different approach if you compare to Lego like Lego is a one brand company um the our approach to the Nokia brand has been or my Approach has been that we need to really perceive it and treat it differently from um yeah from the different regions depending on where we’re in um and also and what we’ve done this year is also to go into basically saying like HMT is not just producing no phones but we are a multibrand company so we we will be producing different phones and we’ll also be launching hmd phones um and hmd stands for human mobile devices um so that would be a completely different audience and a completely different Target group where Nokia is a brand that of course has like more resonance with the older um demographics than the younger and then what what we’ve what we then been able to do is is to feed on on this whole Trend about uh what I call new stalgia or or now stalgia where where people are picking up from like the Y Y2K Trend picking up things from the late ’90s early 2000s and uh take the best parts of what they perceive was a a more a happier time and then bringing that into to a a 2023 or 20 2 for context and that’s been that that is has been very successful for us with bringing back the the 2660 flip phone uh and like some of the other really iconic uh original models from U from the from the best of of the no era and so we’ve been able to play both on developing new devices in some markets really feeding on on the the brand affinity and then using it as a Retro Brand in in other markets yeah totally I I was so happy I was looking at the okay website for the different products you had and I scroll down and the very first one for the feature phones was the 3310 that was that was my first phone and so that was really um do do you still have it no I don’t but actually I did we’re gonna probably talk about that as well the Dum phone THS and having a nons smartphone as well I did a couple years ago I bought an okay I can’t forget the the model because I don’t want to have the smartphone always on me and be distracted by it but can you talk a little bit about feature phones because Feature phones vs smartphones I feel like at least for me I mean when I think phones I think smartphones and that’s from a western perspective but you can talk a little bit about like what well first of all what’s the difference between feature and smartphone why are feature phones still so relevant and how is Nokia position there you guys are the market leader in that category am I correct yeah yeah like we are the the leader on value um uh globally on feature phones so feature phones or dump phones if you wish is is a traditional like block phone that we that we’ve had when we when we all grew up uh the one that could last like a week or two weeks on on One battery charge and uh and you would never go into a bar and have to ask for a charger because of course it would be better on the phone uh until until the next morning or until the next week so that’s that’s typical one of course it’s it’s limited with the amount of functionality it has but as as you also said like that’s that’s actually sometimes a smart choice when you pick a dumb phone because it does actually keep you more focused on on what you want and then of course smartphones is a is yeah we all know smartphone and how smartphone and also how they’re developing across across different um different brands that out there um and and I’m sure that we all uh have a smartphone and uh quite certainly need a smartphone uh but the question is sometimes do we also want to supplement it with a with a feature phone to to understand what’s uh what sometimes is dragging us into digital uh the whole world of digital um and and not really with a with with a lot of um benefits as as we want to just from a brand new perspective because you mentioned that Lego obviously it’s a one Turning HMD into a house of brands brand Global brand um the lip committee that you know that’s that’s one brand as well but with noia you’ve got different markets you got these different segments and you know I think it would make sense to me just if you said okay we’re gonna be we’re gonna be the leader in these um like let’s say especially developing markets where feature phones and then there’s also maybe a trend towards dumb phones and the more developed markets we’re going to take that segment as well but no case all I mean you have a huge portfolio of 50 products over 50 products I mean both feature and smartphones you find that difficult from a brand perspective from the CMOS perspective of like we have all these different products we’ve got these different ends of the markets that we’re trying to go after and we’ve got yeah H H how do you think about like this complexity does it make sense is it how how do you try to balance that from a background having single brand so you can push a I I think is a single brand or one brand companies they have their strength and weaknesses as well because you you can’t adapt that brand approach to to individual markets like Lego they they they very very rarely want to do products for just one market they want do that fire station uh Lego fire station that needs to be sold in all markets you can’t have your own fire station which then again gives you a hyper efficient company with great margins if you can pull it off uh um and so so the other part of the question is like how to think about Nokia in the case of Nokia um I think that that’s where we we we have had to split it up and say like no we will we will need to launch a new brand or several new brands that that I can disclose more of that but but silver Brands will will appear next year um to really be able to have um young youthful really edgy brands that you can say many way things about the Retro trend but it it doesn’t bring you that edginess that that a new brand might have and then we have the NOA brand to solve other challenges and then we might have have other brands as well so I think that that’s if you look at more like a house of Brands which which we we we are we’re approaching or we are already um that’s different different way of of of attacking different demographics and in this market where we have big players like Samsung and and apple and so on um with with the the this the nimbleness that we have and Agility that that’s our best bet to to to fight that that comp competition yeah I mean that makes sense that you know you can’t you’re not going to be able to out spend apple on on brand marketing no without disclosing budgets I could say that that’s not the case yeah that’s not the case exactly so so like then I mean Why leaders must get their hands dirty with AI that that approach seems to make a lot of sense can you talk a little bit about the agility that you mentioned and how you’ve turned that into a competitive advantage and I love to hear like if you can disclose any practical practical examples of how you’ve been able to LEAP on New Opportunities or do things that maybe the bigger comp competitors haven’t um I listened to an other podcast where you mentioned AI you you felt that that’s something that you’ve been able to start implementing faster than than some of your maybe the industry at large so could talk a little bit about like that agility and how that plays out in practice sure um it’s uh I would say in in the last year uh we’ve we’ve become a smaller company we’ve streamlined the company uh which also made it a lot more efficient and uh and um creating more at the same time creating more impact and we’ve done that by by removing uh a couple of leadership layers and like especially in marketing uh basically removed the whole layer which have have taken away a ton of meetings a t ton of alignment um I think to do that you need to build in a lot of trust in the direction and uh make sure that people they trust that they don’t need to be in that meeting because someone else got them like they will do their job you don’t need to be there you need to be listened to you do yours I do mine and then we just continue as fast as possible so so we’ve been able to to Really optimize it on on the structures and uh and and I’ve been actually quite impressed about the whole company how we’ve really have have uh have turned around um uh a a a culture that that I wouldn’t say it wasn’t efficient before but definitely we we’ve injected rocket fuel into the into the veins of the organization on on on this specific marketing and and that part of Technology um we’ve been able to like right from the Geto when when AI became a commodity at at at a level where it was easy approachable like chat DBT mid Journey Del whatever you you have but um we’ve been putting that into the the the marketing operation extremely fast like it’s a um jet TBT was very quickly part of the the daily operation um and I would also say for inst like with with ideation when it comes to creativity sitting there in a meeting and being able to do prompts up against mid journey and and getting ideas back it just really accelerates your your creative development it really really amplifies it um and then you can take it into uh 3D Productions or or whatever you want to have the finalized studio production to make sure you control all the different nuances um but but I think uh this this whole kentor principle about being have man have machine I think the creative teams and marketing teams that that the first and the quickest are uh able to adopt and um control AI will will definitely have a huge Advantage but on top of that that also means that you need to be even more aware of your your cultural references your your the your questions you ask in the AI needs to be at a level where you can actually control it and actually know what you’re controlling it because AI can do many things but it can’t really predict yet um culture and how um a piece of advertising will be perceived in a future environment and that’s that’s where you still have people like like me and and my team who needs to be able to to um to control that and to actually to to select C the different outputs from from the AI but I think a lot of a lot of bigger companies uh will not be able to adopt that like overnight as as we’ve been able to and that’s of course our advantage than uh the others they have the big budgets but uh but we we feel comfortable that we can actually take them on uh we don’t need to take 50% of the market we can just like just a few percent every year that’s that would be good enough for us have you already seen kind of like along any of the quantitative metrics improvements from from using AI like you know used to take us this long to get a creative out and now we can do it in half the time or something something along those lines yeah yeah it’s and it’s not even like we don’t need to measure it because it’s just it’s completely different world it’s it’s just just very very different and it’s a it’s it it’s it takes fewer people but those people that you have needs to be very skilled and very knowledgeable and they need to know because it goes so fast you need to make sure that you have a a Formula One driver behind the behind the wheels and and uh and not someone who’s who’s been dragged behind the horse so I can put it in that way absolutely yeah and I feel like one of the biggest kind of like um maybe most of the friction when it comes to adopting AI comes from people being threatened by it feeling threatened by it and obviously if you don’t adapt it is a threat so how have you been able to get the team on board uh because I feel like that’s something that companies will struggle with it’s like the tools are out there and they’re not that I mean the interface for using whether it’s m journey of chat DPT it’s it’s very simple it’s it’s never been this simple to use these powerful tools so companies and people and teams should be able to adopt them I feel like adoption is still fairly low if you look just across the board and I feel like one big reason is that people are a bit threatened by it they don’t want to engage with it they don’t really want want people are generally I mean think maybe reluctant to change so how have you been able to get the team on board where it sounds like you radically change how you work in a lot of ways yeah no and and I think that’s that that is actually what it takes it takes it takes leadership it takes uh it takes the leaders to get their hands diry and uh if the leaders are not sitting there like fiddling around with their own Discord server and knowing how to use mid journey and and studying if the the the fast development in in prompts and and so on if the leaders are not doing it then then no one will do it or like it might be a few but but but it’s not really it’s not really going to change anything but the moment that the leaders are sitting there and then they know actually more about it than than a lot of the employees then they I think they realize that like it’s it’s time to to get get going like this this will am either going to get am I going to get on this train or am I not because there’s not going to be a lot of people left uh at the station when when that training is is moving so so I think that’s that’s that’s what it takes um and it takes of of course also someone to say like it’s okay that there are risks using new technology we are willing to take to take those risks because the risks of not doing it are are even bigger and again as a as an underdog and as a as a uh a small competitor who’s who’s getting in there like we need to take all the the the the chances we we can get uh to move fast and to get ahead that’s that’s the only like that’s the only change we actually have so we cannot sit there and rely on on a McKenzie report that that’s going to come next year because then everyone has adopted it everyone will know about it so we need to uh car our own path and and the good thing about that is is that you actually learn so much by getting your hand diry and and really trial and error and then just like move like Mark soberg fast in in the way that you you execute yeah I love that I mean and like you said I mean that when you don’t have any other choice you have to be nipple you have to be fast um one thing that I’d love to hear more can you talk about Understanding trends and markets around the world is is the understanding culture because I feel like when it comes to Consumer Brands one of the really really difficult things especially if you’re trying to do a national create have a national brand or Global brand even or especially a global brand is understand keeping your finger on the pulse of the culture and understanding where it’s headed and understanding what resonates you’ve been doing that like Lego uh Olympics MTV you need to understand culture really well so without like going into you know this these are specific sources so we go do these are specific this how it go go about it I’d love to hear like what’s your general framework for it comes to understanding culture is it speaking to a lot of different people getting a lot of qualitative and quantitative input or is it like just purely qual quantitative like how do you go about and thinking about what Will resonate how is how where is culture going and how are we going to then adjust our creative or messaging to fit that I I think first and foremost I I enjoy traveling and and if you work in a global position I know I’m not saying you have to love airports but but you need to accept spending a lot of time in airports and uh and that’s that’s uh that’s one thing because you need to get out there and you can read as many reports you want uh about a certain Market or certain culture what what what you might what I call it but until you you breathe air that’s in that region or in that City or and meet people and talk to lots of people in that specific place you can’t get it at least I can’t get my my head around I I I can’t feel it uh but then suddenly the reports you then read are giving you the quanitative and then you understand why why things are the way they are and you have this kind of like um you you get get both you get to feel it you get to sense it uh and you get to get to get your your your rational brain around it so that’s that’s typically how I how I do it and uh before yeah again before you stand in a mobile store somewhere in Delhi you you don’t really know how what issues they have um but you need to of course apply that and scale that so you don’t just um act on anecdotes and uh uh what happened to be the case in in that single shop you were in but you need to make sure that that’s actually is validated by by by data I I think we have uh We’ve we’ve worked a lot with with implementing a lot more consumer data and a more consumer Centric way of thinking that’s also why besides being CMO and also head a prodct design um so so we make sure that we have that kind of like a cxo experience officer uh in in in one position which I think is is is is quite important when you’re working with something like like Tech or even toys I would say um so that’s that’s how I get I think we’ve we B using a lot of more insights lot more consum centricity um we have this I think great um conversations between markets giving the the the on the streets input to whatever data our insights team might be bringing them so we we can have a conversation and we can all try to understand it from from each our our our point of view which which which is is definitely needed before you can CFT your messaging yeah that’s really interesting that kind of structure seems to make a lot of sense uh though I could I could imagine being quite overwhelming given that there are so many markets and segments and they’re probably very very different in how they perceive Nokia and how or or any future brand they you’re launching and also like what they want in general from a phone yeah like it’s of course there there’s never um there’s no just one opinion about things um but but I think that that’s the good thing uh but also working as a startup and I think that’s actually one of the benefits uh compared to bigger companies where a company like Lego they they sometimes do the paralysis by analysis and and and they do spend a lot of time on trying to what what they perceive as minimizing risks but actually they’re building up a a lot of risk in a specific project because they’re investing so much in research and research research where things could have been tried out five times uh compared to the time it takes to do those reports as a small company we don’t have that uh luxury of of of inviting all of the the big uh uh consultancies indoor and giving hearing their point of view um we have to execute quite quickly so we we might not know 100% of what’s out there but sometimes we believe that that 75% of uh of knowing exactly like it must be in this direction we need to move and then to get get going that tends to be um a fast approach and a better approach for us do you think that that that kind of approach to let’s say it’s not you know Avoiding analysis paralysis all decisions are not made by committees every decision does not have to have three consult agencies or consultancies give their opinion on it like that ability willingness to risk to take on risk and to be directionally correct and quick as opposed to be perfectly correct and slow do you think that that is a obviously has to do with the company culture and um things like like you mentioned in a previous episode or another podcast that you did the importance of the relationship between the CMO and CFO like that alignment is really important but you think that that is just that’s something that startups can do and when you get to a big enough company you will get that lowness you will get that analysis uh sorry paralysis by paralysis by analysis is that just inevitable or have you seen that actually in any big company being able to do that I hope it’s not inevitable and I think some companies the hper efficient companies they they they don’t get into that uh trap oford into that trap um but it is it is it is often like when you have years of success then you become more focused on not destroying that Su success instead of creating it and and creating new successes so so that’s that’s typically how it goes and I and I that’s a natural thing and also uh why shouldn’t you stick to what has made you successful before like it would be a shame not to do it right but then you need to really question yourself sometimes and that’s where you have need to have output like or an an incoming amount of new people who’s allowed to think differently allow to try things out differently and and question the existing and and that’s that balance of course extremely hard to find and that’s that’s that is what’s going to uh make or break uh companies in in the long run totally I think it’s you know commendable that you’ve been able to apply that kind of approach to what like I said used to be one of the biggest brands in the world and you could easily kind of like have that feeling of like oh we have to be very very careful before we go ahead and try anything new this very welln respected brand yeah that but but but I’m also very fortunate to have like a uh an executive leadership uh be part of executive leadership and also having a a CEO and chairman of the board that is that is very um decisive and uh and know that we need to move fast to to still be part of this this industry totally uh I wonder about the sustainability because from what I’ve been reading it HMD’s unique approach to sustainability sounds like you’ve really taken a different approach everyone talks about sustainability well maybe not everyone but a lot of companies do but it sounds like at Nokia you’ve actually made some real not just greenwashing but actually changes in or your business model aligns with a a real Focus emphasis on sustainability so can you talk about your approach and maybe how it’s different from the overall industry yeah sure so so so again like I will work for hmd U who does knock phones so so noia is still another company who does B2B um but but at hmd um and I think we we’ve also been in the last year we’ve been much more specific in what what our contribution is and what our opinion is on on on sustainability um we are for the second year in the row Platinum uh rated on ecoas so that’s the highest rate you can get on on ecoas which means quite a lot on not just sustainability but but how you both are an ethical company how you have your work culture and everything uh they they they do really a great job in in measuring all these things and we’re proud to be the only company that’s done that twice um in a row to be Plum um rated um but also the way that we see it and again like defining human mobile devices that means that we need to be we need to create a positive impact on the planet but we also wanted to create in a way where we make profit because if you don’t make profits you are not scalable and and I I personally don’t believe in in sustainability by by being a charity because you can’t scale charity like you can that’s just going to be like it’s just more money on the table every single Market every single advancement that you do you need to create business models that are truly sustainable both from a profitability point of view but also from a from a from an Eco point of view and that’s that’s that’s what we we are doing that’s uh I think that’s working quite well but it also makes me feel good that we don’t just stand up there on a stage and saying like we’re sustainable but actually we are the more products we sell the the the more we grow the more sustainable uh we will be and and the more sustainability will actually will impact the the world in a in in a good way so I think that’s that’s a that’s a that’s a great Mission and that’s that’s also a good reason why I’m in the in the company and and the smartphone industry as a whole is kind of of like at least the hardware side of it is predicated on this push to update I don’t know I don’t know what the average is but maybe something like once a year and um I I think some you know billions of phones are lying unused and these are phones that contain a lot of um minerals and other elements that have been really you know expensive for the environment to these phones are very expensive to build and they’re just being cycled through very quickly and there’s not much recycling happening so how it it sounds like hmd with the focus on spee your phones uh and and maybe also with some of your smartphones there’s a real focus on on products that will last for a long time and not trying to let’s say I don’t I don’t even know if this if if some manufacturers do this but degrading battery qu battery life quite quickly to get an upgrade to push for upgrades or updates um it sounds like you guys are really focused on creating products that would last for and not force or push nudge people into continue updating updating their Hardware yeah like I I I normally use the analogy of a of a washing machine like imagine like you bought a a semen washing machine and uh like 6 months later um it it keeps part of the cloes you put into it and it it starts uh tumling slower and slower and slower and it uh after you like 12 months after you bought it you have to buy a new one uh it’s going to be a small upgrade but it’s going to cost you $2,000 and like no one would accept that but but for some reason uh consumers have been educated to accept that when it comes to mobile phones so the upgrade cycle is it’s it’s also because we have some very big players that can only increase the amount of Revenue they have if they continue to push the the upgrade cycle right so they have so much Market open market share already that it’s it’s difficult for them to actually grow in in other ways and that is that is cre this kind of like um upgrade virus where you need to have a new phone every s every every single year and that’s not what we believe in like we want to we want people to keep their their phones in hands for a longer time that that’s why we are we are and I I’m proud to say as well we we’re the leaders when it comes to repairability and how to repair your phone and then when I say that people often saying like Okay so it goes it’s I can take it to the shop and I’m going to repair it quicker it’s like no you can do it yourself like you can actually repair um some of our phones that we launched this year you can repair it if you have a guitar collector if you have a screwdriver you can replace the battery you can replace the screen or you can replace the charging sockets uh on on your phone and those three elements uh alone they account for 85% of um of things that break in in in in phones so by by doing that and we’re going to innovate that we’re going to come out with some some really cool stuff next year on on that uh on that like repairability angle which is going to make it even easier and that’s that’s that’s for us a way to to say like we are different no we we we actually do want you to keep your phone in hand for longer and and then of course been asked but are you then going to sell less phones it’s like no it’s going pretty great because we want of course to to grow our market share and uh and also uh not to disclose any big numbers but but but we have we have room to grow like we are not Samsung and Apple yet there there still there’s still a lot of Market out there for us to to to conquer got it you’re taking all these things that taking all these steps that will reduce the likelihood that someone repurchase within a reasonable like the repurchase rate will be lower um because because you’re focused on growing overall market share that’s something that your investors are willing to support and it’s you see it as a way to truly differentiate yourselves yeah and then we can yeah and also I think it’s the right thing to do so it’s it’s not just a a gimmick to differentiate to differentiate ourselves it’s it’s actually the right things to and I think also there’s a movement and a trend in the in the world right now you see the right to repair movement uh you see like of course like everyone can see with their open eyes like own eyes that they can see that planet is is struggling so so we we we can’t just uh pretend that we can continue this one um and and then we we believe that we we have we we we don’t we can’t solve like the the climate crisis or anything but at least within Tech we can be part of the solution and we hope to be part of the solution and and hope to innovate and come up with with with part of solutions to to these massive issues like 5.4 billion mobile devices are are lying around and and draws worldwide like that’s a lot of raw materials that have gone into those and and we we can’t discontinue have another like 5 million in in a couple years being put next to next to the others in the in the in the drawer yeah that’s a really real Point another thing that you’ve done that’s Manufacturing in Europe very different from the rest of the industry is you are the first and the only um smartphone Corporation or maybe at least the one of the major ones that have production now in manufacturing operations in Europe Hungary specifically um I’m guessing not all your phones are made there in Hungary but but some are so can you talk a little bit about that is is this something that you’re seeing coming from consumers because I know that I know that for instance in Germany I mean they’re one of the biggest markets or the biggest markets in in biggest Market in Europe they’re quite um mindful of their privacy and some companies I think it was Aldi who who started like their AWS competitor with one of the big selling arguments was the data stored everything is done in Europe and and that’s that was their kind of main argument so is that are you seeing that from consumers as well this This geopolitical concerns maybe or privacy concerns how are you thinking about this this whole piece AB absolutely at and again it’s it’s h we believe it’s it’s the right thing to do not just to have Manufacturing in Europe but to have manufacturing close to where your phones are being uh are being bought and used so we have manufacturing India as well we have Manufacturing uh we have Manufacturing in in I think Vietnam and and other places as well so so it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s not just that we have it in Europe but but of course we are European company we are based in like we registered in Finland um I’m based in London myself where we have the marketing team and design team um we have our data in a data center in Finland like they’re they in Europe um so for us uh it didn’t start with consumers um we could see that it was consumer interest but like there was no other mobile manufacturer that are even close to daring to open production or Manufacturing in in Europe but we believed because we had some really strong um request from security industries that uh that Europe manufacturing would be would be seen very very uh positively and then the interesting thing is like after we open the manufacturing and we actually see that the products are hitting the market for consumers as well we can see that people are actually willing and and no one was even close to to to guessing that this will happen but the people are actually willing to to pay a certain price an amount more for European made products if you if you if you live in Europe that must be so cool just from the marketing perspective because some of the things we talked about some of the initiatives it just gives you so much like raw material to work with and start thinking about how we can market and position these things so I think that I I’m imagine that would be really kind of like um a red meat for the the market marketing team to be like yes no now we can you know there’s so much you can do with that and and and the fact a company that does things so differently than than the rest of the industry yeah but it’s also marketing one-on-one right like if you if you can’t go into a a competition on on being like the lowest on price and uh and highest on on specs uh um then you need to come with something different right and uh and I think that’s that’s what what that what’s what what we have done and we are a European company um and that that comes with some benefits and and some disadvantages but uh but one of them is is definitely that we can we can do things like this um and also have this and and honestly have a a sustainability angle and repairability story that is uh that is um very authentic it’s it’s fully thought through and we we’re spending a lot of time on it and it’s a it’s of course a challenge for for our Engineers to to get to the same like U thinness of the device when we want to have repairability in it so it’s not something that’s easy to do it’s it’s it’s bloody hard to do and I can see how many iterations they need to do to get it done and to get it done right because we also believe and and I I believe that to to have a product that is sustainable and scalable and profitable it needs to be all of those things but it also needs to be it needs to look cool you need to you want a device that looks fabulous um and when you put those demands on on a device that needs to be repairable it needs to be beautiful and also needs to be affordable which our phones really really are then then that that’s a challenge for the for the for the engineers but but loly we have some great guys in the product team and the and they continues to just come through for us every single time we put another crazy Demand on them it really sounds like you have taken this kind of consumer first approach to the product road map and product strategy in general which I guess the opposite of that was the downfall of the original noia smartphone at least from the outside that was the criticism that they were too engineering driven and not enough you know Steve Jobs came along he knew what he knew design he knew what customers wanted and the rest is kind of history but it sounds like that is really driving the decisions you’re making is is kind of the market and the culture yeah I I don’t what don’t know what happened back in the days with no I was not part of the part of the industry at that point I was probably at the at Lego that those days so so so can can can com on that one um I just think that we have a great opportunity right now with with hmd uh going into multibrand going into develop Tech in different way I also don’t don’t know why $2,000 is uh is believe to be a price point for for a phone I think like we can make phones down to like 3400 that are great phones they look great they they have a great user experience so so it’s also we need to think differently we also need to educate the consumers to think differently in a way like like why why why would you spend that much if you can get something that is actually really really good uh at a lower price point totally um we have couple to just ask a Measuring marketing performance little bit about kind of like the profitability and performance and measurement piece because that’s always something I find really really interesting so just if you could get quickly kind of I heard you in a previous podcast talk about how you were doing me trying to measure the quantitative effects of brand marketing at Lego in the process of of of how you went about like having different video creatives and and how you measure that so if you could just briefly kind of talk about that um I think that’s always just really interesting to see companies um very successful companies and how how they’re able to different approaches to to measure ability of something that inherently is very difficult to meure yeah and I can just start you mentioned previously about um the importance of a good relationship between the CMO and the and the CFO uh and I think U that starts with you being able to show the CFO how his money is being spent and what is what is what’s it’s bringing back and I think that is a some Market is I’ve seen a few few examples uh are coming in with great campaigns and great ideas and they they they they uh blow a lot of money on U on on brand awareness assets but without showing the return investment and I think that’s a that that is a great way to destroy your relationship with with the CFO so so what I’ve always prioritize that’s because I think that’s set when you as a as organization as a marketing organization as a marketing team you start to learn that is when you know the numbers and and you and you obsess about the numbers um and for instance at Lego I think that’s the example you’re you’re referring to we um we were measuring YouTube content and the development of YouTube content typically you just like post the content and then you look at like did we get some subscribers did we get some unfollowers or what what happened here but instead of doing that we basically took the content did the best did the best thing we could do creatively we s and then we took um put it up with paid media to the specific demographic that we wanted to reach um and let it sit there with paid media for 72 hours then we pulled it pull it down again and then we looked at uh the retention rates so basically how how long has people been watching the content so how sticky is the content that’s super important if it’s not sticky people not watch your content they watch the first 7 Seconds that’s it gone so you need to watch the retention then you need to watch the the brand uplift so basically we did brand uplift studies or brand lift studies on on these piece of content to see did that um stickiness actually did the content that cont view did they actually uh translate into that specific brand into the LEGO brand and then afterwards we do did a search uplift study to see did the did people’s behavior actually change post content or post they’ve seen this content because that is when really if they start searching on Lego even like Lego sets like then you know like that’s that is hyper efficient so we did that for 72 hours and then we readit basically brutally based on those numbers then we put it up again with paid media not on the channel but with paid media to the same demographics of course different people took it down again look at the same numbers and then readed it once more and we’ve done it up to five times but we can see like after three times you’ve done this method it doesn’t really increase the amount of or the impact of the content but we could easily see from the first edit to the third edit easily see uplifts of of 40% in in s of these these like the differences between the first and and thir third edit and then you know like when you then put money behind it and really go big then you have content that is performing and outperforming anything you’ve done before and you also get the learnings and you understand like which Talent Works how do we does does our editing word work how does everything combined and then you have this this positive relationship between creativity and the creatives and the the the data that they need to to Really uh uh investigate and and learn from and I think that’s again like that that’s where where where creatives in in a company uh also need to lean into a lot of science a lot of data to really understand what uh what what is working with a specific audience and what is what’s not I love that I mean it’s so practical it’s uh you know you find that kind of proxy that you know will correlate with actual value creation sales in the future and because it’s in a 72h hour window it’s you keep it well 72 hours of running and then you know however long the period after measurement is it’s a very tight window so that gives you that very short tight feedback loop and you can just run that like multiple times per month presumably if you have the the resources and the processes in place and they so like get so much quick like you’re saying three to five iterations you’re seeing 40% uplifts yeah like that that’s huge if you can run those iterations very quickly and efficiently exactly and you get and you get closer to the data get closer to the consumers and and again like going back when you go back to the CFO with with data like that and said like this is how you how we spend your money then uh if you can see the return investment there’s there’s more money where they’re coming from so so that’s that’s also the uh the positive relationship that you need to build with through data with with a c totally uh L no need so just one very quick final question for me what is one Nokia phone that you think people should go check out our people in our audience is there anything that stands out uh I think you should check check out check out all of them and buy all of them um no you should only buy the ones you you actually could use um I I would say um the g42 uh Pink is a is a great phone and is repairable uh it’s a it’s a very low price point on the phone and it’s got really really good uh good remarks um we also won the Time Magazine Award for best uh innovation in the repairability category this year and that’s down to the g42 I would also recommend the 2660 flip if you want to take a digital detox and get back to the late 90s uh or oh no that’s actually like early 2000s uh I I would say the the joy of having a conversation with someone and if you get a tiny bit angry with them you can just like flip it and close it and then just like put on tape that is that has some that has some some some itend it gives it sends you back it’s it’s really it’s really great phone and uh you will not need charger very often that’s for sure I love that um l so much uh I know you guys have planned a lot of things for next year so there’s a lot of things in the pipeline I’m going to be very excited to to follow that um partially because as a Finn you know it’s very exciting to see what the noia brand is Fairing and of course you got the hmd phones coming out um so that will be really exciting to see as well so L thank you so much for taking time it was a pleasure to have you on and to learn from you uh wish you all the best thank thank you thank you so much thank you for listening you can find all episodes of the growth pod on Spotify YouTube and apple podcasts

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