Growth & dialogue in the stakeholder economy with Miltton’s Fredrik Heinonen

3 takeaways from the conversation with Fredrik Heinonen

1. Navigating different stages of growth

Fredrik joined Miltton when it was a small team of just four people. Today, the agency has grown to over 400 employees. This growth came in stages, each requiring different strategies. Fredrik emphasizes that laying a solid foundation in the early stages is crucial—this includes having the right people and clients on board. As the company scaled, it became important to manage processes while maintaining the hunger and challenger mindset that drove their initial success.

2. The importance of stakeholder management

One of Miltton’s key focuses is stakeholder management. Fredrik explained that successful companies must continually understand and engage with their stakeholders, especially in today’s stakeholder-driven economy. By consistently identifying key players and evolving communication strategies, Miltton helps clients build stronger relationships with both internal and external audiences, ensuring relevance and support throughout the company’s journey.

3. Adapting communication in a noisy world

In an increasingly crowded and noisy communication landscape, Miltton’s success lies in adapting to change. Fredrik highlighted the importance of constantly evolving services to meet the shifting needs of clients. Miltton has diversified its offerings over the years, continually staying relevant by adding new competencies like sustainability and design, while maintaining a stronghold in communications and public affairs.

Watch the episode:

Podcast transcript

[00:00:27] Josua: Welcome to the show, Fredrik. Thank you so much. [00:00:30] Thank you for having me. What I’m really excited to talk to you about is both the kind of entrepreneurial business development growth side of things. The work that you’ve done at Milton as a during your, I think, 15 plus years at the company.

[00:00:43] Josua: And then more than that. Even [00:00:45] more, yeah. And then the specific work that you’re doing, which is about communications and what you just mentioned off air stakeholder economy and like making sure that identifying, key stakeholders and then Managing the communication towards those, which is, I think, just really [00:01:00] fascinating and something that I guess a lot of companies need help with, which is one of the reasons why, where you’re going.

[00:01:06] Josua: But let’s start with Milt then. You joined You did a stint at the company, then you came back, I think, in 2008?

[00:01:11] Fredrik: Yeah, correct. I joined in 2004 when [00:01:15] Milton was like two and a half years old. We were four people and one dog tucked away in a remote office somewhere in Helsinki with only one window.

[00:01:22] Fredrik: Remember that. We only had one window. And yeah, that was in 2004. I spent two years and then I got one of those phone [00:01:30] calls you can’t say no to. So I was recruited to become the communications director for Nissan in Northern Europe. Being a young guy, 31 or something, so something like that. I felt that I just need to try this out.

[00:01:43] Fredrik: And it was a fun ride. Lasted a [00:01:45] little over two years. But all along I had this sense of belonging at Milton. Plus Matthias, the founder, kept on calling me once a week, so I couldn’t bear that anymore. So I said, yeah, I’ll go back. And I have really not regretted since. It’s [00:02:00] been a wonderful ride.

[00:02:01] Josua: So you’ve gone from 4 to 400 people, it’s 100x growth in headcount. Yeah, true. I guess that’s the company goes through so many different stages of growth. The organization changes, multiple times. Can you walk [00:02:15] through what’s that journey been like for you? Both in terms of maybe maybe starting with some of the challenges that have come with it.

[00:02:21] Fredrik: Yeah in order to analyze that properly, I think we need to chop it into pieces into different phases. And the first one, of course, being getting a [00:02:30] solid foundation on which to build. And that really entails good people and good clients and a pitch that nobody else has. Our advantage was probably in the early days that we wanted to challenge the PR and comms industry in Finland.[00:02:45]

[00:02:45] Fredrik: And we took example from Sweden, which was really the, essentially the superpower of comms and marketing at that time and partly still is. And then we were really lucky to have a few. Established, highly respected brands as our [00:03:00] clients early on. And all of them actually still are clients.

[00:03:04] Fredrik: So that was really the, that, that’s really the first phase. Getting the ground built properly. Then as an advisory, you need to make sure that you’re constantly relevant [00:03:15] and that your mandate grows. So you need to you need to, um, develop your offering in accordance with what’s happening in the world.

[00:03:23] Fredrik: I think that’s, that can be challenging for some agencies where you are really niched. And what might happen then is that [00:03:30] niche no longer is relevant. So that’s why we’ve constantly added new disciplines and new competence areas to what we do. And identifying those is not always easy.

[00:03:40] Fredrik: It’s some have succeeded tremendously well and others have failed. And [00:03:45] you just need to manage that portfolio in a good way. And then you come into a size when you’re You need to manage the business in a slightly different way. You need to have processes in place. It’s no longer that constructive [00:04:00] chaos.

[00:04:01] Fredrik: You need to move from that into a more organized way of working. And that of course then entails A few sets of challenges, one of which is to remain hungry re to keep up that challenger attitude and to make sure that [00:04:15] you don’t forget where you come from that the strengths you have.

[00:04:19] Fredrik: So I would maybe divide the growth journey in, in, in phases. And they all entail different kinds of challenges but. Then again, challenges are fun.

[00:04:28] Josua: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. [00:04:30] Lots to unpack, but I would start with something that I feel like I, I always or very often ask. You mentioned Sweden being the superpower in comms.

[00:04:36] Josua: Yeah. Why do you think they’re so good at it and

[00:04:39] Yeah.

[00:04:39] Fredrik: Yeah, it’s I’ve been pondering this a lot. and discussing with lots of Swedes. I think one of the thing is [00:04:45] that Sweden has been exposed to foreign trade for much, much longer than we have. For 500 years since the company and all of that.

[00:04:55] Fredrik: So they’ve been international by nature for way longer than [00:05:00] we have. The second thing is probably that their home market is big enough. to grow in size so that you have the resources to internationalize. And by doing so You also need to, there’s [00:05:15] a step change in commerce and marketing that needs to happen and they’ve been good at that.

[00:05:18] Fredrik: And then of course, why why is Iceland good at football? Because they have the culture. It’s not a big country and they’re not, There’s no genetic [00:05:30] prerequisite for making them good at football or handball. They just have the culture as they do in Sweden when it comes to marketing.

[00:05:35] Fredrik: It’s been a long culture of successful coms and marketing and that then feeds new success. Maybe a fluffy answer but I think there are many components to it.

[00:05:43] Josua: Yeah, I think that, that makes sense. [00:05:45] So was that a challenge then early on because you were starting in Finland, you wanted to change.

[00:05:49] Josua: The way the Finland, the way that PR and concert was done in Finland. And I’m guessing it was a lot less, it was more, much more rigid. Maybe companies didn’t value it as [00:06:00] much as they were in Sweden. Was that a big challenge early on as a new for couple of person team, Trying to take on like the industry.

[00:06:08] Fredrik: I would say that there was a market and there was a demand. And I think that to some extent that demand was underserved. [00:06:15] But there’s also there’s also the element of creating new demand. Really packaging your thinking into something that the client can buy. And the fact is that Many of Finnish brands and companies, whilst they [00:06:30] might be industry leaders within their own specific niche, on a global scale, they’re still quite small.

[00:06:35] Fredrik: And therefore there’s a need for thinking anew having creative approaches to how you market or how you communicate and, and, Guess at that time when [00:06:45] we started talking about these things, they were fairly novel.

[00:06:47] Yeah.

[00:06:48] Fredrik: And there was a demand for it. And so it was a combination of offering something new and the market that was probably slightly underserved.

[00:06:54] Josua: You mentioned one key thing, like an agency is increasing your mandate. Yeah. And also, [00:07:00] now you mentioned creating new demand. Thought leadership is something that kind of encampment, encompasses both of those how did you go about creating that kind of authority to be able to create new demand and to be able to tell these industry leading companies that, hey, this is why [00:07:15] we actually have the the insights and the competency to be able to give you really good advice.

[00:07:20] Fredrik: I think that comes down to maybe the most fundamental element of what we are. And our strategy has been simple. It’s to recruit the best people from all [00:07:30] silos of society. And if you approach a problem with only one specific competence the solutions are fairly limited.

[00:07:37] Fredrik: But if you surround that with a very broad array of competences, people with backgrounds in media, or politics [00:07:45] or design, or sustainability, or capital markets, and add that, all of those elements in your analysis, then suddenly it becomes Much more substantial much more interesting and and we would argue that the quality is higher both in, in, in [00:08:00] what, how you analyze the problem but also how you solve it.

[00:08:03] Fredrik: So I think the combination of those those competences around the same table and underneath one roof is really what sets us apart.

[00:08:11] Josua: Got it. When it comes to people, the obvious question is, how do [00:08:15] you identify top talent? How do you recruit them? How do you retain them? Any kind of specific tools, strategies, frameworks, processes?

[00:08:22] Fredrik: I think talent attracts good talent. So we’ve done a fair amount of fairly, um, visible [00:08:30] recruitments during the years and well-known people coming from different different areas of society into our instance, onto our, for instance,

[00:08:36] Josua: very . Yeah. ,

[00:08:37] Fredrik: yeah. Brilliant colleague of ours.

[00:08:39] Fredrik: She used to be the. The chair of the Swedish Greens, for instance. And yeah brilliant consultant and a [00:08:45] brilliant person as well. Yeah I think good talent attract good talent. And once you then, you’re within our organization and you get inspired by all of these people every day you quite, I soon realized that this is a [00:09:00] privilege to be able to work with such broad talent and great talent.

[00:09:04] Fredrik: And that’s probably one of the reasons why we also then retain many of them for a long time. People tend to stay with us for quite a long time. And actually what also happens quite [00:09:15] often is that people return. I was the first one back in 2000, whatever it was. But without having done the mats, I would say that maybe 10 percent of our staff in Helsinki have returned from elsewhere.

[00:09:28] Fredrik: They’ve gone somewhere to sit it [00:09:30] out and come back.

[00:09:31] Josua: Okay. I think as an employer, that’s like the best, probably the best kind of, yeah,

[00:09:34] Fredrik: we’re we’re of course happy for every single one. Who gets an interesting position somewhere. And but we’re also very happy when they come back.

[00:09:42] Josua: Yeah. It’s a huge like vote of [00:09:45] confidence.

[00:09:45] Josua: Okay. And you mentioned so creating that atmosphere of having really talented, smart people working really hard that attracts more people who want to join that. And I’m guessing there’s like the, what’s the overall vision then? Or is it how, what role does that play in the pitch to attracting talent?

[00:09:59] Josua: [00:10:00] The overall direction of the company?

[00:10:02] Fredrik: I think, yeah, of course it’s very important and what we, and of course also the values and the culture of the company. Milton might seem you mentioned before, we went on air our office and it’s a big [00:10:15] clunky thing. Almost intimidating.

[00:10:18] Fredrik: But once you enter Almost everyone says that there’s a warm feeling and our main value is kindness, which might be surprising for a big consulting company. We treat each other with [00:10:30] respect and we’re kind to each other and we support each other all the time whatever might happen.

[00:10:34] Fredrik: I think that’s one of the things that people sense when they get in the process of discussing with us whether or not they would, you know, would work for us. So I think that’s one element to it. But then [00:10:45] we call ourselves changemakers. We want to with the tools that we have, which is profound societal insight and the bet I’m exaggerating, but really good handicraft in comms and all marketing and everything it entails.

[00:10:59] Fredrik: We want to [00:11:00] change the world for the better. And I know this sounds a bit. tacky. But we’ve done things that have we’ve had projects that really accomplished that. And people, I think people sense that it’s, of course, it’s not always like that. There’s an everyday grind like in every [00:11:15] organization, but that’s what we want to do.

[00:11:17] Fredrik: And I think many of us share that, that ambition.

[00:11:20] Josua: Got it. It seems often when I, or it seems like almost all companies struggle with internal communication. At some level, and you are communication [00:11:30] experts. I’m just curious to hear like how you’ve structured that in or how you’ve thought about communications as you designed the organization.

[00:11:37] Josua: And maybe like maybe there’s specific examples. I remember I think it was Pixar that there’s a famous example of Steve Jobs designing the building so that [00:11:45] people would be forced to walk. And that would create these encounters that would spark these kind of creative creative insights.

[00:11:52] Josua: Yeah. Like what kind of principles have you used in designing the organization from a comms point of view?

[00:11:57] Fredrik: First of all, we’re a very flat organization. Everybody [00:12:00] talks to everyone one, or at least has the opportunity to do so I think that’s one thing. But all that having said that initial disclaimer, even though we’re professionals on it, It’s very hard, like in all [00:12:15] organizations.

[00:12:15] Fredrik: That goes without saying. I think one, one element of it is remembering that communications least of all internal communication, it’s not a transaction, it’s a relationship, it’s a, it’s an ongoing process in which there’s a culture that allows [00:12:30] people to ask And say, and think, and have an opinion.

[00:12:34] Fredrik: I think that’s number one, and that’s a cultural thing, that’s not a structural thing that’s a cultural thing. So that’s the foundation, I believe, for it. And the second one is that, that you need to, in, in this day and age, you [00:12:45] need to be transparent, you need to tell. You need to have dialogue with your people about how we’re doing, what are we doing, what is it that we want to accomplish and that, that sounds like a no brainer but it might sometimes be fairly hard to accomplish actually to have [00:13:00] that.

[00:13:00] Fredrik: But we’re trying everything can always be done better but we’re trying in that. And then maybe the third element is that we regard Milton maybe not as much as the company, but more as a ecosystem or platform which [00:13:15] brings together people from different silos of society. Some might be clients, some might be former colleagues, some might be opinion leaders, some might be staff, et cetera.

[00:13:24] Fredrik: And and in, in the idea of an ecosystem where [00:13:30] people meet and create things together, there’s always that built in idea of a dialogue,

[00:13:36] Fredrik: In which you share ideas and share concerns and share values and all of that. So I think that’s also an important element in how we function [00:13:45] as an organization.

[00:13:46] Josua: I think that the dialogue aspect is really interesting because in, it’s clear that when you have open dialogue, you can have a very constructive debate that will surface best ideas and different perspectives and you get this, it should lead to the [00:14:00] best possible outcome. And then I think in practice it’s so difficult because people are, we’re all fragile at some point and it’s very hard to get people to speak their minds about things and certain things become, holy cows inside an organization, they can’t really criticize.

[00:14:13] Josua: And there’s all these like [00:14:15] personal and organizational barriers that keep us from doing that. So like just anything that you’ve been able to observe and any kind of. Any tips, is what I’m asking for how to create that organization where people are actually you’re [00:14:30] actually getting people to speak their minds throughout the 400 plus organization.

[00:14:34] Fredrik: Again, I go back to the culture of the organization and and making sure that there’s room for everybody regardless of what their position is or [00:14:45] what their task or role is making sure that they’re heard and making sure that there’s that both appetite but also encouragement.

[00:14:54] Fredrik: To to contribute and have your saying and criticize and everything that, that [00:15:00] entails. I don’t think there’s a one rule or two tips or one, one silver bullet on how to solve it. I think it’s a long journey and you just need to create that culture in, in which you can, everybody has room to contribute.

[00:15:11] Josua: Yeah. So it’s like that kind of I think [00:15:15] someone described culture as like the. like a 50 day moving average of the company. So it changes all the time. And it’s just the sum of all the interactions in the company.

[00:15:24] Yeah.

[00:15:24] Josua: So I guess that to your point, like it’s, there’s no. Easy fix. There’s no magic tool.

[00:15:28] Josua: It’s not about implementing [00:15:30] slack versus something else.

[00:15:31] Fredrik: Yeah of course, we have the slacks and everything. It’s not, the tools are there but I think the tools are also subject to culture. Yeah. Yeah. And I just must, I have to stress that we’re in no way perfect in this. Every organization [00:15:45] has their weaknesses and strengths, and we need to be better at it as well.

[00:15:48] Fredrik: Even though that is our handicraft.

[00:15:50] Josua: Yeah, I think that’s encouraging for everyone who feels like they’re so bad at this, which I guess is a lot of people. Let’s talk a little bit about comps in general. You’ve seen, you’ve [00:16:00] been in this industry for a long time now. Has anything changed or a lot of things have changed rise of social media and so forth, but are you in a, do you feel that we’re in a place right now where there’s like a, there’s a clear playbook that companies can use, or are we in this state of there’s a constant [00:16:15] change and we’re like, things are changing so fast that there’s no specific playbook.

[00:16:18] Josua: We’re just, companies are constantly having to react to changes in how people.

[00:16:27] Fredrik: Playbook is probably the wrong word but I think a [00:16:30] realization needs to happen. And that is that we’ve entered this time , let’s call it a stakeholder economy. Which means that there is no transaction or investment or process.

[00:16:42] Fredrik: That, that is not subject to increasing stakeholder [00:16:45] interest and pressures. In other words, you would, in order for a company to be successful it really needs to profoundly understand all the stakeholders that surround it. And it needs to manage those and it needs to make sure that those stakeholders [00:17:00] or the majority of them are in support of the commercial journey that company or organization is having.

[00:17:06] Fredrik: If you if you fail. In, in creating the stakeholder support that you might actually fail in your commercial or your strategic [00:17:15] interests. Really understand it that, um, I’ll describe it another way. We’ve spent, our industry has spent 20 or almost 30 years in defining Customer journeys, right?

[00:17:26] Fredrik: And millions and billions have gone into understanding them and [00:17:30] creating the infrastructures and the technologies to do that. I think the same level of sophistication should be applied to all stakeholders that are critical to a company. Just making sure that you really profoundly [00:17:45] understand what they think and how you as a company should act as part of society.

[00:17:50] Fredrik: We have this saying that you don’t position your brand or company against competition. You possess it, position it as part of society. And that is getting increasingly [00:18:00] true. So this realization is, I think, very important. The most important one to make right now if your incomes and then of course it’s or in general management but then of course there are lots of things happening.

[00:18:12] Fredrik: The sustainability, [00:18:15] involvement, AI increasing a number of global and geopolitical trends and events that shape our operating environment. You just need to understand how these affect. Your organization and your comms and that’s not easy because [00:18:30] as you said, it’s so fast that resources are usually quite slim.

[00:18:34] Fredrik: So in order for the company to understand what happens within these you usually need to, um, adapt quite quickly.

[00:18:40] Josua: Yeah. Lots in there. But one thing that I feel at least from a. [00:18:45] From a consumer user, individual person point of view, it’s really difficult to get a sense of what’s really going on.

[00:18:52] Josua: It feels let’s say in Finland, 50 years ago, we had four TV channels, there’s newspaper, local newspapers, and they tell the narrative like, [00:19:00] this is the, this, the, this is what the general public thinks. Now you depending on who you follow on Twitter or depending on which group you’re active in on Facebook, you get completely different.

[00:19:10] Josua: Framings of the world. So how are you going about Surfacing those kind of [00:19:15] insights to allow customers Companies to be able to actually get a pulse on what’s going on.

[00:19:20] Fredrik: I think they’re two answers to that question. And the first answer I actually already touched upon, and the fact that you are surrounding a problem or a [00:19:30] project with very different competences.

[00:19:31] Fredrik: So someone with background in media might analyze the situation very differently from someone with background in politics or sustainability. And then the debate and the dialogue and accumulated knowledge [00:19:45] of the team then, at least to some extent shows the entire picture or the resemblance of the entire picture.

[00:19:52] Fredrik: But then there’s also, we’re working very extensively with insights on different levels. We have a subsidiary called Nordic West [00:20:00] Office. Which is fairly well known here in Finland, working with geopolitics and global events and global trends. Then we of course have our EU advisory in Brussels looking at everything that happens in EU because it’s profoundly important for our clients and our businesses.[00:20:15]

[00:20:15] Fredrik: Then we have our local public affairs teams knowing what’s happening in, in national decision making and everything that, that entails. And then we have a research team with anthropologists and other qualitative and quantitative [00:20:30] insights that look into what is happening in society, what are consumers looking at, what are different stakeholders looking at.

[00:20:35] Fredrik: So that those levels of insights allow us to. I would say understand fairly well what’s happening in [00:20:45] a society and then convey that into to our clients and the projects we work with. But by no means, it’s probably not comprehensive, but it’s fairly good at least.

[00:20:53] Josua: So would it be safe to say that’s like always a starting point when you’re engaging a new potential client is providing them with this [00:21:00] broad qualitative, quantitative, qualitative backed perspective on what’s going on that they.

[00:21:05] Josua: May completely lack.

[00:21:07] Fredrik: Not always but often times, yes.

[00:21:10] Josua: One thing that, that I’d be first, let’s ask this. [00:21:15] Some people have said that we’re in this post truth era. Maybe we’ve been in those kinds of eras in the past. Maybe we’ve always been there, but certainly it feels like much more tangible.

[00:21:23] Josua: Like, how are you how are you telling advising clients when we’re in a stage where [00:21:30] it seems that trust in all institutions, media, is like just keeps eroding, eroding, eroding? Yeah. Like, how is that impacting how companies should do communication?

[00:21:38] Fredrik: I think there, again, it needs to be dismantled into pieces in order to give a proper answer to it.

[00:21:44] Fredrik: But I think [00:21:45] number one is, of course, something that applies to us all as individuals and professionals is to understand and critically analyze things that we encounter. That goes without saying. And it’s a huge task because as you said, the trend is not going the right way, but [00:22:00] without that ability we lack, lack certainly the the the capability to analyze things properly.

[00:22:06] Fredrik: But If you talk, what you refer to, I think that looks very different or could look fairly different if you look at it from a societal and [00:22:15] political point of view or an organizational commercial point of view. Yeah. It’s really a big problem. in society and in politics and decision making in that area.

[00:22:26] Fredrik: But then if you look at companies they’re of course guided by [00:22:30] rules, regulations and laws. And to some extent at least Whilst we need to be better at understanding what’s going on in the world and what is right and what’s not, and what’s true and what’s not there is a lot of regulations and rules, to some extent at least, make [00:22:45] it easier for companies to, to operate in this environment.

[00:22:48] Fredrik: But yes, it’s a big challenge, of course.

[00:22:50] Josua: Yeah. I’m thinking, it feels like so many things have changed now from just thinking back like maybe 10 years ago, now you have employees who are, employees of companies who are [00:23:00] active on different, it could be anything from going on employee review sites like Glassdoor to being very active on LinkedIn and having potentially far greater reach than any of the company itself.

[00:23:13] Josua: And I, I recently saw on LinkedIn, there [00:23:15] was a guy who was dismissed or he quit from Amazon and he had this. posted a letter that

[00:23:21] he

[00:23:21] Josua: had shared and that got tons and tons of traction. So it feels like a lot of the power, shall we say, has moved, [00:23:30] or certainly been more distributed equally between individuals and companies.

[00:23:34] Josua: So how are you advising clients to think about employee ambassadorship, for instance, or yeah, how do you bring in that kind of like How do you now that employees have [00:23:45] much, these tools have given individuals a much greater voice. Yeah. How should companies think about using that kind of symbiotic relationship?

[00:23:53] Fredrik: I think to some extent, at least this goes under the umbrella of thought leadership and communicative [00:24:00] leadership. And if we start from let’s say the management level I think I believe that it’s increasingly important for the top levels of the company to be good communicators to really understand their audience and to be able to resonate with [00:24:15] that to have good, be good storytellers so that they get that.

[00:24:19] Fredrik: Stakeholder support that I mentioned a few minutes back. And that’s not only we see in some companies you have the CEO being really good at that, but that’s not enough. The CEO is, [00:24:30] of course, the prime voice of the company, but then you need to get the rest of the crew on board as well to become good storytellers.

[00:24:37] Fredrik: Not only in external relations, but also internal, internally. It’s really important that you have people that are able to the company direction and the [00:24:45] company purpose and the value add in a meaningful way. So I think that’s something that you really need to put some careful attention to in all organizations.

[00:24:53] Fredrik: But then coming closer to your question, I think We live in an [00:25:00] age where everybody has a voice and everybody has everybody who’s opinionated can raise that voice. So we’ve gone past the time maybe when that’s a major concern. It’s become an everyday thing. The question is really how do you motivate people [00:25:15] to, to use that traction into something meaningful?

[00:25:18] Fredrik: And that’s where the attention should go.

[00:25:19] Josua: Yeah. And I feel like a key part there is the authenticity and genuine authenticity that comes from hearing individuals. Because it, at least as a, me as a consumer, I feel like I’ve gotten [00:25:30] used to when I’m listening, hearing from companies, I’m used to It being very polished and obviously very curated.

[00:25:36] Yeah.

[00:25:37] Josua: And that, for me, makes it really boring, typically.

[00:25:39] Yeah.

[00:25:40] Josua: So how do companies manage this tension between, on one hand, wanting to control the narrative and the [00:25:45] messaging?

[00:25:45] Yeah.

[00:25:46] Josua: There’s all these memes about big companies that you can’t get anything past legal.

[00:25:49] Josua: Yeah. And then on the other side, authenticity, like real human vulnerability and authenticity is engaging to people.

[00:25:57] Josua: Just to give one example, you have Elon

[00:25:58] Musk,

[00:25:59] Josua: who I [00:26:00] feel like has taken a sledgehammer to all the traditional comms rules. But it resonates clearly, like millions and millions of people follow him. So I guess what I’m asking is he an anomaly, Elon Musk, in many ways he is? [00:26:15] Or do you think we’re seeing this as an anomaly?

[00:26:17] Josua: This emergence of companies and leaders recognizing that, oh, if I’m really authentic and, I say what I think and I communicate off the cuff. Sometimes, it’s going to, it’s not going to land too well, but it’s going to give [00:26:30] me this authenticity that will allow me to rise above the noise of all these other companies with their polished messaging.

[00:26:36] Josua: What do you think?

[00:26:36] Fredrik: I think overall authenticity is of course a prerequisite for good comms. That goes without saying, but I think that the main. topic that one needs to [00:26:45] understand is what is truly relevant and meaningful and what is not. Companies and brands have a tendency to talk quite a lot about themselves and the things that are interesting for themselves from maybe from a commercial or innovation perspective.[00:27:00]

[00:27:00] Fredrik: Those things aren’t necessarily very interesting for a broader societal context. So the sweet communicative sweet spot is the place where the company’s interests and strengths Meet with societal [00:27:15] questions or big trends and identifying those. That sweet spot is what you really should do. And then of course, yes, have your own tonality, have your own way of doing it, have your your style and yes, making sure that it’s authentic.[00:27:30]

[00:27:30] Fredrik: That’s when it works best. I don’t know about Elon Musk with all due respect maybe he’s the exception to the rule. He plays by his own rules.

[00:27:38] Josua: Yeah. It’s when you see all these people are reading about Steve Jobs and wanting to copy him and it’s you’re not Steve Jobs.

[00:27:42] Josua: Yeah. Okay. So interesting. So with [00:27:45] that sweet spot, then how would you advise, let’s say a industrial manufacturing company that’s, we’re really good at this. We make this whatever widget. And we’re really good at it, but, we just make this widget and we serve our customers really well.

[00:27:57] Josua: And that’s great. But we don’t have any idea [00:28:00] about the broader, like, how do we even put this in context of the broader societal picture?

[00:28:05] Like,

[00:28:05] Josua: how do you advise typically companies go? Do you? But I guess what I’m asking is do you need this grand vision? Or is it just enough to say, we do this really well and it’s [00:28:15] serving our customers and we’re providing jobs.

[00:28:16] Fredrik: There’s the saying don’t make ads, make conversation starters. And I think that’s a good role. Really having a process by which you identify a few things. Number one, what are the sleeping beauties within the [00:28:30] organization? The things that are, They’re so close to you that you don’t see that they’re interesting.

[00:28:34] Fredrik: And there are lots in every organization. So that’s, I think that’s one thing. The second thing is, uh, through a process really understanding, and I come back to stakeholder [00:28:45] relations and straight, the stakeholder economy. What what are the. the things we do, how are they relevant in a broader context?

[00:28:53] Fredrik: And that’s something, it’s not advice, it’s a process where you just go on and try to [00:29:00] identify the different things that, that somehow you add to the conversation. Somehow you take the debate into the next phase or you add something new to something that already exists and usually you find them.

[00:29:12] Fredrik: It’s hard work sometimes.

[00:29:13] Josua: [00:29:15] I think a great point with the Sleeping Beauty I guess that’s where an external consultant can really help.

[00:29:21] Fredrik: Yeah, surely. There’s we’ve had so many projects where the company or the client It’s like, there’s nothing to see here, nothing to say here, and [00:29:30] then we start scratching the surface.

[00:29:31] Fredrik: And it’s just it’s there’s a vast amount of interesting stories about innovation or people or processes or history or aspirations that, that can be then explored. Converted into interesting stuff.

[00:29:43] Josua: Safe to say that more, [00:29:45] more often than not, it’s not about creating some new grand vision or strategy, it’s actually about uncovering what’s already there and making it interesting.

[00:29:53] Fredrik: Yeah it’s about, I think it’s both. You really need to, to some extent have an aspiration. This is what [00:30:00] we want to accomplish, this is the world we want to create, this is the value we want to add to our customers, this is where we want to reach. And then building that story with tangible evidence and those are usually the stories and the sleeping beauties that you can identify in the process.

[00:30:13] Josua: Yeah. Yeah. [00:30:15] I think we’ll have to wrap up really soon here, but one final question for you. You, I think you’ve done a great job at touching upon a lot of things that kind of set the stage for successful comps, identifying stakeholders starting with that, obviously, and finding the sweet spot.

[00:30:28] Josua: Once you’ve [00:30:30] done that, laid that foundation as a company. Any advice or thoughts about then the channel, the mechanism That you use to get that message across to people and I’m thinking specifically in this day and age where there’s, we’re all like flooded with [00:30:45] ads with social media posts, with news, with videos, like there’s way too much.

[00:30:49] Josua: So how do you go about just standing out, just getting attention, getting anyone to pay attention to what you have to say?

[00:30:55] Fredrik: Again, I come back to understanding what is interesting and what is not. And you do that [00:31:00] by understanding how society works and how the societal. Stakeholders are what drives them and what does not then you need to have an idea that we used to say maybe some time back, but still probably relevant is channel [00:31:15] independent, an idea that is strong enough, regardless if you’re using this or that channel that is just so strong that it actually that it generates, creates traction and generates interest.

[00:31:26] Fredrik: And that I, you should never plan a campaign or [00:31:30] rarely plan a campaign based on channels or tools or something like that. You should always think how is this relevant, how is this adding to something. in an interesting way.

[00:31:42] Josua: That reminds me of Ogilvy’s concept of the big [00:31:45] idea, like every campaign needs to have that big idea.

[00:31:47] Josua: And if you can’t identify that, then you’re probably, you need to do more work in understanding.

[00:31:51] Fredrik: Yeah. Yeah. Simplify. Yeah. Making it super easy to grasp.

[00:31:55] Josua: Yeah. I have to ask one more question because the topic is so [00:32:00] interesting to me. Any book, any resource that has helped or really shall we say, profoundly shaped how you view communication.

[00:32:10] Fredrik: I must, sorry my source of inspiration is the everyday [00:32:15] encounter with my colleagues and my clients to be honest. There, there’s so many books and so much literature and so many thinkers and doers or speakers that, that it’s hard to identify one, one single. I think The magic happens in the everyday interaction with [00:32:30] clients and colleagues.

[00:32:31] Josua: Yeah, I respect that answer. Fnatic, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. If people want to follow you, is LinkedIn the place where you’re most active?

[00:32:40] Fredrik: That too I’m ashamed to say that I’m fairly passive. So I would encourage to [00:32:45] follow Milton as a whole.

[00:32:47] Josua: We’ll put put that link in the show notes.

[00:32:49] Josua: Like I said, thank you so much and best of luck with everything you’ve got going on. Thank you so much.