What it takes to build a successful startup

3 takeaways from the conversation with Jussi Kallasvuo

Start with the problem, not the product

Many early-stage founders jump into building solutions too quickly, without deeply understanding the actual problem they’re solving. At Antler, founders are encouraged to spend significant time validating the problem before thinking about product features or MVPs. This foundation is critical for creating something customers actually want and are willing to pay for.

Grit and urgency matter more than credentials

While strong resumes and technical skills are valuable, they’re not what set the best founders apart. What matters more is the level of urgency, ambition, and ownership that founders bring to the table—especially in the first year, when there’s no team to fall back on. Founders need to be relentless, resourceful, and deeply committed to pushing their idea forward at speed.

AI is a massive opportunity—but it needs a moat

AI has drastically lowered the barriers to building and launching software. This enables small teams to scale fast—but also increases competition. To succeed, founders need to think beyond quick wins and focus on building sustainable advantages, whether that’s proprietary data, strong distribution, or a unique insight others don’t have. Speed is great, but defensibility is what sustains long-term growth.

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Podcast transcript

Josua: Uh, yo, welcome to the show. Thanks, you [00:00:30] as well. Uh, pleasure to have you here. Gonna cover, cover a lot of topics. Probably talk about, um, your, your kind of past, past as well. But, um, right now you’re working as a general partner at Antler, so I’d love to start there. Could you kind of explain. [00:00:45] What is Antler?

Josua: How did it come about? What are you guys doing? How is it different from, from what some of the other incubators slash maybe early stage investors are doing?

Jussi: Yeah, absolutely. So I joined Antler, uh, year and a half ago, I guess, to, to set up the office in [00:01:00] Helsinki. And then Antler is a, a global early stage VC investor.

Jussi: It was originally launched out of Singapore, uh, by a bunch of Norwegians and Afin, another uc. My, my colleague actually. Uh, and, uh, and the whole [00:01:15] vision from the get go has been to be the day zero first investor of a, of a given company. Somebody who, who basically backs founders from the, from the very moment that a company is born or even a bit before that kind of, we [00:01:30] want to be part of the company creation process.

Jussi: And then since starting out of Singapore, we’ve now grown to actually 27 locations globally. Helsinki being one of them. Uh. I work for the Nordic Fund, and we are present in Helsinki, Stockholm, [00:01:45] Oslo, Copenhagen. And, and what we do different versus a, a traditional vc, if, if we use that term, is that, uh, we run these, uh, founder residencies we call them, where we bring in people [00:02:00] who have a very strong desire and ambition to build something, create something, start the founder journey, but they don’t necessarily have a team yet.

Jussi: Or they might still be in the process of actually discovering what the [00:02:15] exact thing they want to build. Uh, and we are willing to kind of take the bet of, of bringing these people in, working with them. And then committing to be the first investor in whatever they end up doing together. Mm-hmm. So, so I would say that, that we go [00:02:30] in, in this sense even earlier than a traditional early stage P-C-A-V-C would.

Jussi: Okay. And, uh, so you come in earlier than, uh, Y Combinator even would? Yes. Yeah. Yes. I mean, I guess when companies graduate, if we use that, that [00:02:45] phrase, uh, with us when we make the investment decision, I think at that point they would be YC ready, so to say. Yes. Yeah. So we start the work already some months before that point.

Josua: Okay. And, uh, I think you just quite recently announced latest [00:03:00] fund Yeah. Uh, in the Nordic, so congratulations to that. Yeah, thanks. It was, uh, felt good to go public with that and have it done.

Jussi: Yeah, I’m, I’m really happy about that. Of course. I mean. Fundraising at this current environment is not the easiest thing to do, right?

Jussi: I mean, plenty of capital is still [00:03:15] tied in, in all kinds of illiquid assets. Uh, I think the market is getting is, is starting to move again. I mean, we’re seeing more, more m and a activity. We’re seeing more hopefully big IPOs this year. We’re seeing more stuff happening, but fundraising is, uh, [00:03:30] the market is tighter than it used to be a couple of years back.

Jussi: So having now a hundred million fund, you know, put together of course, is great and, and allows us now to focus on what we actually like to do, which is investing and helping the great founders. Yeah, I mean, I [00:03:45] didn’t become VVC to fundraise. I became VC to help companies grow and get to invest in cool founders.

Josua: Exactly. Uh, I just, because you mentioned IPOI just wanna ask about that because we’ve, I don’t know the exact stats, but the IPO market in Finland has been like dead.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Josua: Um, so [00:04:00] can you talk about maybe why it is. And, and maybe especially specifically, like what’s the implication of that on the startup community?

Josua: Yeah. Is it, is it like Yeah.

Jussi: Well, the why is, is a good question. I guess it’s, we had a, we had a [00:04:15] boom and these things go in cycles. We had a boom. Uh, and now it’s been, it’s been slower. I mean, I, I guess the, the market is more cautious. They’re more kind of risk aware at the moment than they were a couple of years back.

Jussi: And it always [00:04:30] has to go. So that, I guess it’s a US market that leads the way it first starts opening in the US and then it kind of trickles down to the European markets and, and Finland being, well, we’re at a remote corner of Europe, right? So most likely we’ll be one of the, kind of the [00:04:45] later entrance to the IPO market when it kind of reopens.

Jussi: Uh, but the implication. Of all this, of of things being slow is that capital is not moving. So the why we need IPOs and m and a is that money is being [00:05:00] returned to investors so that they can invest again in something else, right? So if this flywheel does not turn, the money is not kind of freed from the past investments to be reallocated to something new.

Jussi: Uh, which of course makes it more difficult for [00:05:15] any company to raise for the funds, for the, uh, GPS to raise new funds, et cetera. And it just slows the whole economy down. Yeah. Uh, and it’s, it’s of course, I mean this is the case when it comes to startups and uh, like illiquid private market [00:05:30] investments.

Jussi: Yeah. But of course the same with with the public side. When money doesn’t move, things economy slow down and things slow down. And,

Josua: um, is there like also a very big psychological effect? I’m thinking both for investors and founders. When you have like these big public m and a, [00:05:45] uh, acquisitions, exits, IPOs, that does that create like, both from like investors and entrepreneurs, they see that, oh, it’s actually possible.

Josua: You can have this big exit and

Jussi: obviously, obviously, and we need those, we need those kind of crazy stories of somebody really making it big.

Josua: [00:06:00] Yeah. Because I mean,

Jussi: those are the, those are the fuel of the, of the, of the founders of tomorrow. Right. Hey, I wanna be that person who takes my company public. Yeah.

Jussi: You know, I wanna be that star. And I don’t even think people are in it for the money, but they’re in it for the, for the experience, for [00:06:15] the status, for the fame, for the, they wanna be that person who stands, you know, ring the bell at. Not if that’s a thing to do. I don’t know if it is, but, but, uh, I don’t think it’s about the money, but it’s about the kind of winning, so to say it’s a game.

Jussi: It’s about winning.

Josua: Yeah.

Jussi: In that game. [00:06:30]

Josua: Uh, how, yeah. I, I, I, I can understand that totally. Uh, just go back to anther, uh, your model then you, you’re like zero day zero investors. You’re doing it at a very big scale, I think like thou a thousand teams or companies founded.

Jussi: Yeah. Yeah. [00:06:45] I mean, or funded, sorry. Yeah.

Jussi: I think it’s, it’s way more than that globally nowadays. Okay. I mean, we have a billion dollars, like altogether a UM in the funds. Yes. So, of course that already, you can make quite a few bets with that. Uh, I think we’ve done something like 13, [00:07:00] 1400 investments, like initial investments globally in the Nordics.

Jussi: We’re at 200 something, uh, now. And uh, yeah. I mean, that’s what we do. We take. A big number of early stage bets.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Jussi: Uh, and of course many of these end up [00:07:15] failing. That’s the whole logic of VC investing and, and given that we go in earlier, even earlier than others, I mean, our model is built in a way that, that it allows for many failures.

Jussi: Yeah. But at the same time, of course, we need to find the winners. Yeah. Uh, [00:07:30] uh, I think VC is all about, and investing in startups is all about the optimism. Mm-hmm. So what if things go super well? What happens in that scenario? Mm-hmm. And finding those people and those teams and those founders and those ideas to back, that’s what, that’s what kind of we should [00:07:45] focus on.

Jussi: Not the risks of, of, you know, all the things that can go wrong because, uh. It will, some things will go wrong, and it should, and that’s totally fine. It’s part of the game for us. It’s important to find the great stuff that actually goes well.

Josua: Yeah. It’s so interesting because if you [00:08:00] think like very early stage, it’s all about optimism, trying to see what could go right.

Josua: Yeah. And I feel like, you know, private equity and maybe some those types of investment, it’s all about trying to figure out what could go wrong. Yeah. And I, you’re talking to like one guy who made the transition, it’s like a huge mental [00:08:15] shift you have to make. Yeah. Um, yeah,

Jussi: no, and no, no, that’s the case.

Jussi: And, and, but like, funnily enough, even in, in enlisted markets in, uh, let’s say like the OMX or the Helsinki Stock Exchange, even there, the return is actually, it comes from just a couple of lines. If you [00:08:30] take a 10 year horizon mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. An average case in Helsinki is maybe flat or slightly negative.

Jussi: Mm. And the return is generated by a few winners. So even in like in more mature stages, you need to find the winners and kinda that’s, that’s what it’s about. [00:08:45] And, and the average return of course, and like the median startup Yeah. Will not. Generate a, a big return, it’s most likely gonna be actually zero.

Jussi: Yeah. Like a median return. Right. So you need to, need to find the winners and be optimist. Yeah. That’s what it’s about.

Josua: I, I think [00:09:00] in, in the US it’s been the case, right? I mean the s and p 500 has had this like, really great run, but if you exclude like the MAGNIFI seven or whatever it is mm-hmm. It’s actually negative.

Josua: Yeah.

Josua: So they’re like carrying, you got like a handful of companies carrying the entire, the world’s [00:09:15] biggest stock market essentially. Exactly.

Jussi: Yeah. And then how sustainable is that? Yeah, that’s, that’s in the long run. I dunno, that’s crazy. I dunno. But it’s like partially, it might be hype, partially it might be this momentum, this, this, everything AI now, but partially it’s about the, it’s about the [00:09:30] position those companies have in the market.

Jussi: Yeah. Those crazy strong network effects their business models have been able to generate and, and still do the data advantage some of them have and so forth. Uh, so it, it might be partially hype, but it. There’s some [00:09:45] truth to it as well. Yeah. In my view. So it’s, it’s not all, you know, fluff, all hot air. I don’t think so.

Josua: Yeah. Um, so you, at atta you’re doing, you’ve done like 1300, 1400 investments, I guess that makes you one of the most active investors in the world. [00:10:00]

Josua: Hmm.

Josua: Um, are you able then to build like this really big data set of, um, or are you Yeah. Are are you taking like, maybe, maybe an analytical approach Yeah. Where this like VC maybe has been more kind of like judgment and kind of an art or you trying to like [00:10:15] create

Jussi: the science of it?

Jussi: Well, yes, we’re trying to bring some science to it. Absolutely. I mean. I mean, we are super active, but of course we would want to, and we are also super, super selective. Yeah. So it’s not all about being active. I think on a global level, we [00:10:30] receive at the moment something like 180,000 applications to, from all kinds of founders to join us building something 180 k because that’s quite a big number, right?

Jussi: That’s, that’s a lot. That’s a lot, right? So, so of course the trick is how do you pick [00:10:45] the best founders out of that mass, of that pool of candidates, right? So we would be super foolish if we didn’t take a data approach to all this, right? So, so we have actually a, well, it’s basically finding a needle from a [00:11:00] haystack, right?

Jussi: So, so we have all kinds of ways of, of, and we’re building all kinds of tooling to allow us understand that pool of candidates better, be able to better pick the winning founders, the, the most prospective founders out of that pool, the [00:11:15] prospective cases. So yeah, definitely it’s a data play. Till, till some extent.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Jussi: But at the same time, I mean investing this early, you back people, you, you ultimately, you back founders and you have to trust them. [00:11:30] So there’s definitely a lot of art to that as well. Mm-hmm. And that’s kind of our approach. I mean, we bring in people to work with us for. A number of months before we commit to actually investing capital in whatever they’re building.

Jussi: So we tend to know [00:11:45] the people really well when we kind of decide on, on whether we invest or not. And that’s pretty fundamental in my view, at least, that, that I really want to trust the person. I really want to know the person that I’m, that I’m investing in. And, and the idea [00:12:00] is secondary to me. Mm-hmm.

Jussi: What they’re building is secondary to me. Mm-hmm. It’s the people that we back and, and knowing the people well, trusting the people in their capabilities, in their determination, skillset, the ambition, [00:12:15] vision. Yeah. Whatever that is. I mean, that’s what we bet and that’s more art than science. And that, that I, I think that, that you can only do by, by spending time with these people, kind of learning to know them, what they, what they do [00:12:30] for hobbies.

Jussi: I mean, how they, how they talk, how they, I. Tell stories how they behave, all, all this kind of stuff. So it’s, it’s not just data. Yeah. But it’s also this kind of a perception of like, do I fundamentally want to back this person or not? Do I believe in that [00:12:45] person or not?

Josua: Yeah. Is there anything when you, so obviously like I said, it’s finding the needle in the haystack.

Josua: It’s about identifying presumably before, like other investors, you’re identifying like future top talent. Um, and is there anything kind of [00:13:00] counterintuitive that you’ve found as like a heuristic that you can look for? Or is it kind of the basics? Hardworking, dependable, you know, very technically savvy if that’s what they’re doing.

Josua: Yeah. Um,

Jussi: I, I think that [00:13:15] any startup to be kind of be able to, to disrupt and kind of stand out from the crowd or the competition, they need some unique angle to whatever they’re doing. They, they need to figure out something unique, something that they do different versus everybody else. ’cause at any given [00:13:30] point in time, there’s gonna be.

Jussi: A huge number of companies or founders attempting to do thing X, solve thing X. So, so how do you kinda find your own angle to that? And, and sometimes the best founders [00:13:45] are not the, the, the obvious one. Sometimes you need somebody with a, with a very specific skill set or a specific way of thinking, uh, at least as part of the founding team, which allows for them to discover a unique angle to, to building something.[00:14:00]

Jussi: So can we do this just about by looking at CVS or, or kinda how they scored at an SAT or, or some test IQ test or whatnot? I mean, I don’t think you can, but you have to. You have to like find a, find a [00:14:15] team that has that unique angle, some way of getting there, uh, some ambition that takes them there. And, and it can come in, in many shapes and forms.

Jussi: I think so. So of course we have some very strong leading indicators. If you’ve kind of done stuff in the [00:14:30] past that you’ve been successful, I guess any VVC would want to back an ex founder who’s done a great exit, right? Yeah. So it’s the most obvious thing. Uh, you have certain kind of carrier paths that that might be indicative of, of hard work and, and, uh, superior [00:14:45] skillset.

Jussi: But, but it’s not so black and white. They, I mean, we believe in diversity. We believe in teams that are diverse and, and, and like put together from a, a, a different set of, of talent, not just that everybody comes from same [00:15:00] mold. Uh. Uh, and I think that’s the, that’s the interesting part of all this. Yeah.

Josua: Yeah. So I’m guessing with your model, you’re backing a lot of first time founders.

Jussi: Yeah. Quite a lot. Yeah. But I mean, I think, this is not exact, but, but my gut [00:15:15] feel that we actually have a batch starting next Monday, so pretty soon. I’m super excited about that. My gut feel is that maybe half of the people joining mm-hmm.

Jussi: Haven’t founded a company before. Okay. So they have experience in this and then maybe the other half are then like [00:15:30] first time Yeah. Founders, uh. With a strong vision or some cool idea they wanna wanna do, but there may be first time trying it out. So, so it’s a mix and match. Yeah.

Josua: I think that’s great that there are, you know, you, you get these people who don’t have that track record, but there’s [00:15:45] something exceptional.

Josua: They’re, you know, yeah. They got the great idea. They’re very motivated. Because, you know, I think about like, um, mark Andreesen, I think, said obviously a very big venture VC investor, and he said basically for them, um, to get an investment from them, you have to [00:16:00] have worked with them in the past and somehow mm-hmm.

Josua: Or you need a really strong reference from someone like that they know. Yeah. So essentially, like, if you’re not getting into that club, if you will, it’s like Yeah. Pretty hard.

Jussi: Yeah. I mean, we call it Spike. We think everybody should have some spike. Mm-hmm. But the, but the thing that [00:16:15] allows the, the what allows us to kinda take this.

Jussi: Kind of not the obvious ones, or at least try our luck with the, not the obvious ones is that we work with them for quite a long time before we actually commit to investing. Yeah. And this is something that I don’t think Mr. [00:16:30] Andressen, for example, does. I mean, they meet a team, they have a look at the pitch deck, they might meet again for the second time, and then they have to make a call.

Jussi: Do I invest or not? We spend 10, 12 weeks with these people, really get to know them well, and then we decide are they, I [00:16:45] mean, should we take this bet or not? Uh, so so that’s the core of our kind of approach to all this. Yeah. Of course. We wanna help them kind of validate whatever they want to build. We want to help them.

Jussi: Yeah. And we do help them a lot, kind of figure it out. But at the same time, it [00:17:00] acts as due diligence Yes. For us in our investment process. So it serves like both purposes. Of course.

Josua: Yeah. I, I think that’s so, approach is so interesting and I, I, you can do it. I think also as a company in recruitment, I know Automatic, yeah.

Josua: The, the company behind WordPress. [00:17:15] I think they do for every role. Um, you will do a paid project, you’ll get paid fully. Yeah. But it’s like a maybe a six week or something like fairly long project and you get to work together and that’s, yeah. That says so much more than a CV or an interview. Or a test.

Josua: Yeah. I

Jussi: think, I think any [00:17:30] company that can, should work that way. Yeah. Like somehow work together with that future prospect employee.

Josua: Yeah.

Jussi: Do a project pay well for that project, but make it a project that a, allows you to analyze and really think about, is this [00:17:45] our next future superstar employee or not?

Jussi: Is is he or she the best fit for us at this point in time? And, uh, it’s sometimes easier, sometimes more tough to kind of set up. But I would definitely encourage those who [00:18:00] can, or, or those who are in a position where they can do this to kind of work that way.

Josua: Yeah.

Jussi: Uh, like probation periods. One great thing as well, of course.

Jussi: But, but [00:18:15] somehow the way I I see the corporate world working is they’re more kind of on paper than, than somebody that that’s something that they would actually act kind of upon. Yeah. But you know, you have the probation period and almost always, whether the person was good or bad, it just kind of runs [00:18:30] out and then Yeah,

Josua: yeah,

Jussi: yeah.

Jussi: The problem, you encounter problems later down the line.

Josua: Exactly.

Jussi: And, and it’s not always even about this if a person is good or bad, or quite often not, but it’s about the fit. Yes. Is this the right person for this specific role that we have, the specific tasks [00:18:45] that needs to be done, and then kind of setting up project testing, testing, working together.

Jussi: Do we share like cultural fit, value fit, working style, fit, remote, local, whatever, uh, on site. [00:19:00] Test it out if you can. I, I think it, it’s a good advice for any company. Yeah. No matter how big you are.

Josua: Yeah. Totally agree. Um, so you, you’ve got this new batch starting. What are the specific things that you and the team at anta are helping with these founders with?

Josua: Like what are [00:19:15] the, the big common challenges that they run into? Or are there common? Is there commonality? Yeah. I mean,

Jussi: in my head it all starts from figuring out a real problem to solve that [00:19:30] something that is urgent. Like something that is real and, and urgent and strong and some something that somebody would actually pay to for, for you to solve for them, right?

Jussi: Uh, and, and before jumping to any kind of a solution, [00:19:45] we need to understand the problem really well and, and validate the existence of that problem really well. And that’s where our process kind of starts. Uh, of course we need to, first of all, we have a group of people come together who haven’t met each other.

Jussi: Prior. [00:20:00] So of course the first week is a lot about just matchmaking and, and kind of building that shared feeling of creating something together. But once we’re past that point, it’s all about kind of discovering the urgent problem and validating that. [00:20:15] And it’s something that we spend a lot of time on and, and really push the founders’ hard on that, that, that you might think that you have figured it out, but have you really asking, you know, different kinds of questions, get deeper, deeper, deeper.

Jussi: And finally, once we [00:20:30] think we’re deep enough and in, in understanding what needs to be done, then have a rough idea of how to, how to solve it. Some kind of an MVP, some kind of a really rudimentary way of actually solving the issue and then some proof [00:20:45] of, of, of, of somebody actually accepting that solution and bringing us some, some feedback on, on that.

Jussi: And that’s the kind of the loop that we keep, we keep spinning and focusing on for. A number of weeks. Uh, and I, I think that’s the, that’s the [00:21:00] core. I think that’s the most basic and, and the best way to start building, building a company, understanding the problem. Once you’re kind of deep enough, start thinking about the solution a bit and test out what could work, what could work with prospective clients.

Jussi: Find out [00:21:15] somebody, find somebody who really wants to pay you for the solution and, and take it from there. And that’s the process that we work kind of jointly on. Mm-hmm. With the founders. Uh, it’s not a school, we don’t teach them that, Hey, you [00:21:30] need to do X, Y, or Z. We ask tough questions. And I guess I, I use the term tough love.

Jussi: In some, some interview I did that, that, you know, of course we support, but we, if we, if we’re not tough, if we’re not critical, if we’re not. Pushing [00:21:45] hard, we’re not doing our job right. So that’s my kind of value prop to founders. Tough love. Tough love. Yeah.

Josua: Yeah. That’s good. Um, so at what stage does the kind of business model enter into it?

Josua: Like, how do they, let’s say they found this [00:22:00] problem, but um, maybe, you know, maybe they also have a solution, but, you know, then there’s, there’s a question of can you build a viable business? Yeah. Can it just be profitable or can it be big enough? Yeah. When does that enter into the conversation?

Jussi: [00:22:15] Yeah, it’s a good question.

Jussi: I mean, I, I think like fundamentally. When we actually didn’t think about investing. I mean, fundamentally we have to believe that it’s possible to build a business model in this, um, that will work. [00:22:30] Do they kind of, how, how soon that will that have to kind of come together? Not instant, not immediately. Of course, it’s okay to lose a, a lot of money in the beginning, but like, of course there has to be some idea that fund ultimately this will make sense.

Jussi: [00:22:45] Ultimately, the business model that these founders have envisioned will make sense. Uh, and, and they come in again in so many shapes and sizes. Business models, uh, the best ones obviously are the ones that kind of get stronger over [00:23:00] time, generate a data advantage or some kind of a network effect or, or a brand that becomes so strong or, or something that allows it to kind of grow stronger in time.

Jussi: Uh, optimally we would be looking for those kind of things. Mm-hmm. But, [00:23:15] uh, but. I guess it’s not always possible. So, so the minimum requirement is that, that we have a, a, a problem, we have a solution, we have proof that somebody will pay for the solution, and [00:23:30] then that we believe in the capabilities of the team that hey, they will actually be able to execute this.

Jussi: Yeah. That they have a cool plan, but can they actually build the product that they have envisioned? Can they actually get this plan together so that they can then ultimately be able to discover a business [00:23:45] model that

Josua: Yeah.

Jussi: Actually is viable in the long run.

Josua: Yeah. I think that, I mean, that makes sense. If you’ve got those two things, the, that, well three things, the problem, solution, and the, the team that’s adaptable and committed and and capable, then the bet is very simple that they’re gonna be able to figure out the [00:24:00] business model some way.

Josua: Yeah. Along the route.

Jussi: Yeah. I mean. And I mean ultimately they, they end up having to make quite a few pivots on the way. Yes. Yeah. Testing different models out. Uh, it’ll be foolish to commit too strongly to a given Yeah. Business model too [00:24:15] early. I mean, sometimes you don’t know. Are you gonna be build a commission?

Jussi: It’s gonna be a subscription. I mean, if it’s a platform play, which side of the platform you actually end up charging. It might even evolve over time that you end up first charging somebody, but then you kind of ch [00:24:30] change and charge the other side side instead or both. Yeah. Uh, so it depends. It depends so much.

Jussi: But I guess us as any VEC, as any investor, like all this kinda recurring revenue models are way more attractive than mm-hmm. Like single [00:24:45] sales stuff that you have to kind of redo all the time. So yeah, all kinds of subscription recurring revenue models obviously make a lot of sense. Yeah. Easier to predict, easier to kind of.

Jussi: Invest in. Mm-hmm. Because, because of predictability and, [00:25:00] and, and the numbers are easier to kind of measure and, and build projections on and so forth.

Josua: Yeah. Yeah. Are you also then helping, helping companies with, with the go to market? ’cause there’s like, there are certain best practices about how to price, how to grow, how to sell.

Josua: And I’m [00:25:15] guessing, you know, especially if it’s a first time founder, maybe they’re very, they got this like domain expertise, technical knowledge in the specific field.

Josua: Yeah.

Josua: But then there’s a bunch of like this back office and, and other like general business skills that they lack. Yeah. Do you guys then [00:25:30] also support with that or,

Jussi: yeah, we help them figure it out.

Jussi: But like, am I gonna pick up the phone and start doing cold calls for Right. For founder? No way. Mm-hmm. I mean, it’s somebody, it’s them who have to kind of show that initiative and that hustle and that kind of pick up the phone, right? Yeah. [00:25:45] Intros, of course. I mean, help figure out the most, like probable buying persona or ICP, whatever we call it.

Jussi: Uh. Of course we help in that thought process and help figure it out and, and push the founders to make the [00:26:00] tests that they need to kind of do in order to actually know if what they think, if the hypothesis actually is correct or not. Right. Uh, so we work a lot jointly on that, uh, theme, uh, help them [00:26:15] figure it out.

Jussi: But of course we can’t do the work for them. Yeah. I mean, we, we invest in, I don’t know, maybe 15 companies in Finland alone per year or something in the Nordics 50, between 50 and 60 probably. Uh, it’s, it’s quite a lot of themes, [00:26:30] quite a lot of stuff that has to be figured out. So

Josua: yeah,

Jussi: so we ultimately, we trust the founders to do the work, but we help them ask the right questions, help by, you know, making intros when, when they make sense, help help them figure it out.

Jussi: [00:26:45] Yeah. That’s our,

Josua: I

Jussi: think,

Josua: um, oh, I, a question that. Escape me. Uh, there, there was a quote, it was, uh, I forget who, it was some investor, when a founder asked, asked him how, how they would be if, how, what kind of help they would [00:27:00] receive from the investor. And the investor said, why would I invest in a founder who needs my help?

Josua: There you go. So you can’t be holding it like they need to if they can’t get it, if they can’t figure it out, I mean, good counsel. Yes. Yeah. But if they can’t figure out, figure it out themselves, then

Jussi: No. That’s the thing. [00:27:15] And I, I like, even when it comes to intros and whatnot, I mean, yes. Yeah. If you’re determined and just want to reach somebody, I mean, you should be able to do so.

Jussi: Uh, give, look at the tooling at the moment. Like a person with no technical background, if determined, [00:27:30] can put together an MVP for a quite a complex service or app or whatever, quite fast actually using the current AI coding tooling, for example. So, I mean, we can’t teach, we can’t do stuff for them, for [00:27:45] anybody.

Jussi: We’re there to kind. Council, we’re there to spar there to kinda help think about the right things, but ultimately, of course, people have to do it themselves.

Josua: Yeah. What are the biggest problems that you see founders or teams run into? Like, are there anything that stands [00:28:00] out? Like common, they always make these mistakes or they don’t focus enough on this?

Josua: Yeah. Take too much attention to to that.

Jussi: Yeah. Well, a couple of things come to mind. First of all, I mean, something that I touched upon already, but this jumping to solution, thinking [00:28:15] that, that you start building a solution before you’ve actually validated the existence or the need for that solution that you don’t, you start building something that you don’t fundamentally know if people actually want that or need that because you haven’t even understood the [00:28:30] problem well enough.

Jussi: So that we see all the time and we all the time have to kind of push funders back to kind of figuring out the problem first, deep, go deeper, deeper, deeper, and then think about solving. And so that’s one thing. Uh, secondly, and I guess. [00:28:45] Here, opinions differ, but I don’t think like fundraising at the early stage for a company, I don’t think it’s a numbers game.

Jussi: Mm-hmm. If you have to take a hundred investor meetings, I think you’re doing something wrong in the sense that your, [00:29:00] your product, which in this case is your company as a whole, is the product from an investor’s point of view. Uh, if you have to take a hundred meetings and everybody says, no, your time is not well spent taking another a hundred meetings, but by figuring out what’s wrong with the product [00:29:15] IE your company and, and kind of fixing that and then allowing funding solve for itself.

Jussi: So very often founders kind end up in this loop where there’s run around looking for capital and money and kind of. Trying to raise [00:29:30] funding when, when they should be focused on, on building a product that somebody actually wants and then proving that that’s the case. And then the allows allowing them the funding to kind of come to them.

Jussi: So I don’t think building a startups about, like running around [00:29:45] looking for investors, but it’s about figuring out something that people actually want to buy and then doing that and then allowing the funding thing to kind of solve itself because of all the traction that you can generate and, and the [00:30:00] kind of the, the product market fit that you can demonstrate.

Josua: Yeah.

Jussi: So those are pretty fundamental things. Yeah. Uh, but it’s something that I, I think people should think about more. And then there are all kinds of, you know, minor stuff relating to kind of spending time on admin [00:30:15] versus actually being out there with the clients, understanding client’s needs and customer needs and whatnot.

Jussi: But, but for a fundamental level, I think those are kinda. Can be huge time drains. Yeah. That a CEO of a very young, small company [00:30:30] could end up kind of spending time on just running around looking for funding. And of course, like, like I would also kind of encourage people to think about like how much work is needed in the initial stages of, of a company, [00:30:45] how much work they need to put in to actually have a shot at making it fly.

Jussi: Like on a day, on day one, in a company of one or two founders, there is nobody else in the world who will do anything for them. If they sleep, the company does not [00:31:00] move. Mm-hmm. If they eat, the company does not move. Right. Then when they have a first employees, they might sleep and somebody still does something for the company.

Jussi: It still kind of evolves. It goes some, some places, but the early stages, it’s all up to the, the founders [00:31:15] kind of figuring it out and, and putting the work in. And I think the first year they should expect to. Really commit to working hard and not procrastinating. Not kinda, I’ll do this tomorrow or next week, but do move [00:31:30] super fast.

Jussi: And it’s again, something that I think almost every founder could be better at and, and up to the point where they kinda collapse because of that. Just doing too much. Yeah. But like, that’s what people should be prefer prepared [00:31:45] for when building companies. Given

Josua: that, what do you think is like a good background or is there like a good optimal background for someone to start a company?

Josua: Because I’m thinking if you worked at, I, I think there was this article maybe I just heard, read the headline about [00:32:00] Googles mm-hmm. Googlers leaving to start, start their own startups and realizing that it’s really hard actually.

Jussi: Yeah. Surprisingly, because

Josua: if you, if you worked inside this, this ma money printing machine Yeah.

Josua: That is like one of the most successful companies, startups of all time ever. You get, [00:32:15] you get really like. You get a completely distorted view of what it is. So do you, do you see that, I’m thinking in your portfolio, like people coming from big companies, maybe they, they got the technical, they got the business skills mm-hmm.

Josua: But maybe they don’t have the, [00:32:30] the, the grit and perseverance that it would require.

Jussi: No, I think it’s an excellent question and, and I think it’s more up to the per person, uh, kind of than, than we could kind of generalize and say that everybody who [00:32:45] comes from big corporate, uh, would be, would be determined to, to kind of end up, end up that way.

Jussi: But I definitely do see that that’s a risk and it’s, for us, it’s kind of a red flag that we need to mitigate if we, if we kinda think about [00:33:00] applicants coming from re really large corporate corporates or mm-hmm. Somebody with a long background working for a large corporate, because of course they would need to be quite certain that this person has the founder kind of mentality and, and they just don’t, [00:33:15] they don’t need the kind of, the, the, the momentum of the big company and all the resources, the big company to kind of push things forward.

Jussi: They actually want to do the work themselves. ’cause again, as I said. You can day one, you can’t delegate. Yeah. You can’t say somebody else, do this for me. You have to do it [00:33:30] yourself. So it’s definitely not a showstopper, but it’s something that we, we have a look at. And, uh, and I don’t know, like I, I guess post Nokia, many Nokia employees became founders.

Jussi: Mm. And I don’t know, like I haven’t seen the [00:33:45] data, but I don’t know how many of those cases were successful in the end. And I’ve always wondered that, was it partially because of, of people kinda kind of coming from that, that, you know, big corporate background and then expecting to, to be quite fast, [00:34:00] uh, successful with the next next ventures.

Jussi: And I, I am sure there are some really great companies born out of that, but, but there probably in many cases who also kinda didn’t go anywhere because of that, that problem. But I wouldn’t generalize. I think it’s up to the persons in people in question and Yeah. [00:34:15] And, uh, and, and that, but it’s something that I.

Jussi: It takes a different kind of a mentality, for sure. Yeah. Yeah,

Josua: yeah. I’m, I’m guessing kinda the flip side of that would be if you’ve joined a very successful startup early on, then that could have been a really great training ground for you.

Jussi: Yeah. Yeah. I [00:34:30] mean, those are, again, we talked about the leading indicators when we look for great founders.

Jussi: Uh, definitely kind of those kind of early employees of companies that became category leaders. Yeah. Like the Finnish unicorns, uh, of course, [00:34:45] very interesting profiles because they’ve first of all seen how much work it takes to, to get a company to that level. And secondly, understand how tough the competition is.

Jussi: Mm-hmm. How good you have to be to win certain category, uh, [00:35:00] and like what the competition is globally. Finland is one thing, but then when you go to Stockholm, you already realize that hey, it’s actually a bit bigger here. You go to London, it’s again, another step. You go to San Francisco another, right? So if you kind of see in that close that [00:35:15] journey, uh, of course it gives you perspective that’s super valuable.

Jussi: Hmm. Uh, and a great kind of a starting point to then build something of your own. Hmm. And it’s something that we see across the Nordics that the, that the founders from X unicorns, or the [00:35:30] unicorns that have been created, or the early employees of those, those companies are kind of the second generation.

Jussi: Yeah. Cool tech, fast-growing companies. And we see this in, in Sweden, we see it in Finland. We see it all over the place. Right. Uh, [00:35:45] which is of course, I hope that it’s, it’s a kind of, it means that we have good prospects to create more great tech companies outta the Nordics because we’ve had past success cases in all the foreign Nordic countries, and Estonia [00:36:00] definitely included.

Jussi: Uh. And kind of those should, at least in my mind, ultimately breed more great tech companies kind of being bored out of these locations. And, and it’s gonna be great for the economy. Yeah, it’s gonna be great for the [00:36:15] VC industry, of course. Uh, but it’s gonna be a lot of jobs, a lot of high value adding jobs, uh, a lot of talent mm-hmm.

Jussi: In the economies and in countries. So I, I think it’s, it’s very positive and, and definitely something that we, we look at all the time. [00:36:30] Mm-hmm.

Josua: So you’re working in the Nordic Fund, and I guess you mentioned Estonia, and I’m guessing you have also exposure to the other kinda markets that Antler is, is active in.

Josua: Um, do you see any big differences between startups in Finland or compared to Sweden? Estonia, [00:36:45] and I’m thinking, you know, Sweden had, maybe not anymore, but until quite recently, they had the highest startup, sorry, unicorn per capita rate outside of some Silicon Valley. And if you look at the stock market in Sweden.

Josua: It’s the most valuable company, pretty by, [00:37:00] pretty big margin is Spotify. Yeah. And that’s not the case in Finland. You don’t have startups in the top 10, I think, or top 20 or whatever, so Yeah. Yeah. Not

Jussi: yet. At least not yet. Hopefully yet. We’ll, at some point.

Josua: But do you notice any big differences and is there anything that Finland can learn from our [00:37:15] neighbors or, well, I guess

Jussi: it’s, it’s a cliche that, that, that Swedish companies or Swedish founders would be better at, at selling or commercializing branding.

Jussi: Mm. But I [00:37:30] do believe that there’s some truth to that as well, that, that cliche, uh, we are more kind of engineer driven, more maybe solution driven again, in Finland than we tend to be in Sweden, or, or I’ll touch upon [00:37:45] on Estonia later. Uh, and it comes back to my previous earlier point on, on kind of.

Jussi: Starting from the problem, not from the solution. What I see too much here is, is engineers or researchers who, who have kinda, they have a solution looking [00:38:00] for a problem to actually solve. And, and maybe I don’t see that in Sweden because I’m not boots on the ground there. But I definitely do see too much of that in Finland.

Jussi: Uh. And it start from understanding the customers better. It starts from understanding the [00:38:15] market, the problem better, and maybe then trickles down into being better able to actually sell the product, which the Swedes tend to be for some reason better at doing. Right. Uh, and this also manifested by the cases that they’ve, that have been born out [00:38:30] of that market.

Jussi: I mean, many, many more consumer facing unicorns or great companies versus Finland, I guess. We have, of course the super sell the games that have been a huge success case, uh, older ring, I guess nowadays a huge [00:38:45] consumer case coming out of Finland. So we’ve shown that it’s possible for sure, uh, but, but kind of have to keep up the good work on that front.

Jussi: Uh, so I would say that, that even if it’s a cliche suite and we do see more P two C stuff, [00:39:00] we do definitely see more like consumer facing, uh, exercises and uh, and simply more activity at the moment, somehow Sweden is already. Maybe picking up a bit more than, than Finland now post this small [00:39:15] slump that we’ve seen.

Jussi: Uh, and when it comes to Estonia, I mean, again, I guess they now have the highest unicorn per capita. Okay. Numbers like 4.5 per million inhabitants or something. So it’s, it’s, it’s quite a lot. And, um, and [00:39:30] uh, it just, the ambition is, is is crazy when I talk to young people from Estonia, like 20 year olds.

Josua: Hmm.

Jussi: Uh, for them, it’s not like, it’s not another, a question of do I go to university or do I build a startup? It’s like the only thing they want to do is build up, build a startup [00:39:45] because that’s like, somehow it’s, it’s the cool, it’s the thing that they want to do and the ambition and the, the grit and all that seems to really be in that.

Jussi: Should really be there. I really respect them for that and, and, and cool ambition. I don’t think like skill wise we’re [00:40:00] definitely not a single bit worse in Finland, but we could benefit from that crazy ambition and that desire like burning desire to do stuff. Yeah. I think we are a, we have a, a better social security kind of a net or we’re kind of a bit more comfy I feel.

Jussi: Yeah. [00:40:15] Versus some of the Baltic founders who kind of, they don’t have that kind of a state backing. Yes. They have to do stuff to build stuff to kind of improve their kind of standard of living more than, than we do here. So it feels at least, and, and they seem to be like [00:40:30] super ambitious maybe because of that.

Josua: Yeah.

Jussi: Great to see. I I love working with, uh, with Estonian Baltic founders. Yeah. Super cool people.

Josua: Yeah. Um, it feels like, and we, I feel like we’re definitely comfortable, uh, and. There, which is fine. I mean, we [00:40:45] can make a choice to focus less on folks, more work like balance, but I think we shouldn’t delude ourselves into thinking that grit and energy, and especially I guess in the beginning, sheer number of hours

Josua: Yeah.

Josua: Actually matters. Like, yeah. When you’re Zuckerberg running a big company, [00:41:00] like it’s not about that hours, it’s about judgment. It’s about making good decisions, but when you’re like getting started and you just need to push through.

Jussi: Yeah.

Josua: Um, no,

Jussi: that’s the thing. I mean, and, and of course, I mean, I’m all for work life balance ultimately as well, and I, and I guess anybody who decides to live in [00:41:15] Finland probably is, we want, we are here because we appreciate the kind of the other side of, of, of all this as well, right?

Jussi: Mm-hmm. But, uh, but especially in the early stages of the first year, like if somebody decides to become founder. They all want to succeed. So why not [00:41:30] just then fully commit to try to succeed The first year cannot be about work-life balance. I don’t think it’s, it should be the mindset. It can turn into that later on.

Jussi: But the initial phases, it’s simply at this, partially about, about the, the sheer [00:41:45] numbers that you can put in. And because the competition is fierce, somebody else is doing that. They’re as smart as you, but they are putting in the work. So, so it’s just like this, I will work, work so much smarter than somebody else.

Jussi: It I don’t, and it doesn’t make sense to me ’cause [00:42:00] there’s somebody else doing stuff. Super smart, but more so. Yeah. And you need to be there

Josua: and, and in fact, I always find that action creates insight. Like if someone is just, they’re doing, they’re talking to twice many people. Yeah. Even if they’re not as smart as you, they’re just gonna have [00:42:15] learn more.

Jussi: Exactly. Exactly. And then, yeah, definitely. And coming back to diversity, I mean, just having teams that are diverse enough, again, speeds up learning because you have different. Kinda different ways of thinking and then speaking to different kinds of clients in different [00:42:30] locations. Also, very important that you don’t just call cold call finish potential users, but you actually reach out to Sweden or UK or the US or Germany, whatever, to get different perspectives and again, speed up learning.

Jussi: So it’s very essential.

Josua: Is [00:42:45] that something that you look for or like is maybe a, a criteria for you as you wanna build a kind of global first, like you’re not interested in building something that can only be for the finished market, like you need to think. Yeah, yeah,

Jussi: yeah. For sure, for sure. I mean, of course it’s fine for us if, if the first clients come out of Finland, but there has to be a, [00:43:00] has to be an idea of going global.

Jussi: Yes. Super fast. I mean, we’re a tiny spec in this kind of, I mean, I did an MBA. Was it like 12 years ago in, uh, in Spain And, and we were actually thinking about finding a company with a [00:43:15] group of my fellow MBA candidates or graduates back then. Uh, one was from the us, one was from Israel, and, and one guy was from Germany and I was from Finland and as a team of four.

Jussi: So then we were, this, we’re kind of finished with the, with the [00:43:30] MBA we’re thinking about, so where should we set up the company? So we had a US, a German one from Tel Aviv and then myself. So I can tell that Helsinki was not high on that list that we could go to, you know, we could stay here in Madrid or we could go to Berlin, or we could go to [00:43:45] New York.

Jussi: Why would we go to Helsinki? Where’s, yeah. So I think Helsinki is a great place to build. We have great talent. Yeah. Uh, the price levels are acceptable. I mean, cost levels are acceptable. Uh, many, many good reasons to build [00:44:00] here, but the customers we need to find, I. Elsewhere. Yeah. Pretty fast.

Josua: Yeah. And then it comes back to the, that maybe the skillset that the the Swedes have more than us is you need to be able to explain what you’re doing and the, the commercial commercialization of it.

Josua: It’s not [00:44:15] enough to, to be, have this kind of finished mindset. We’re gonna build it. Yeah. Make it perfect and then barely be able, like, barely talk about it. Yeah. Not, not brag. Yeah. Just kind of like, yeah.

Jussi: No, but I mean, building a company is about storytelling. Yes. And doing it boldly. I mean, you have to [00:44:30] put together a story that convinces, well, first of all, your co-founders, like you’re the people you build with.

Jussi: Then you need to convince the, the resources, like somebody who joins you as an employee that, Hey, I wanna be part of this story. You need to convince the [00:44:45] investors, uh, hey, this makes sense from that point of view. And ultimately you have to tell a story that convinces the customers as well. Mm-hmm. And, and, and being kind of bold and.

Jussi: Kind of coming across, not, not, you know, brash, but, but in a way, you know, [00:45:00] convincing and bold and optimistic and positive. Yes, it’s of course super important. And, and as fin, I don’t think it’s that it’s, it’s not the core of our kind of self, it is not the core of our kind of behavior, our kind, uh, I think the [00:45:15] Swedes are more optimist in that sense.

Jussi: Again, maybe it’s something that then ultimately translates into, into them being sometimes better at mm-hmm. At, at, at doing this. But I guess we all can do this if we just decide that, hey, we, this is a problem we need to [00:45:30] solve. We need to do it, we need to put together a compelling story that, you know, excites all the stakeholders.

Jussi: Yeah. I mean, we’re not any worse than anybody else.

Josua: No, of course

Jussi: not. But we have to just decide to do it and understand that we need to do it. Put ourselves out there.

Josua: Yes. [00:45:45]

Jussi: We founders. I mean, if you just sit back and wait for others to, again, discover you, it’s not the way to go about it. Right. You have to somehow get, be active, get yourself out there.

Josua: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I wanna talk about ai. I feel like [00:46:00] probably the most, the earliest, the most kind of aggressive users adapters, uh, of AI would be early stage startups. Mm-hmm. Because they’re, they’re seeing all these tools. They’ve got this big, big incumbents. Yeah. And they’re like, we need to build this prototype very [00:46:15] quickly so that obviously they’re going to use AI in a way that big companies are, are not gonna be doing.

Josua: So what are you seeing from, from the companies that you work with? How are they using AI and, and how is that changing? Changing? Maybe the, maybe not at your stage, but I’m [00:46:30] thinking, you know, VC in general because I. I’ve, I’ve come across a few of these companies in, in recent time, um, one of them I’m thinking of went from like zero to 20 million a RR in two months, I think.

Josua: Yeah.

Josua: Um, built this AI tool and [00:46:45] the, these companies are doing like crazy high a RR with very small teams, um, very quickly. Yeah. Um, yeah. So how, how, how are you seeing AI

Jussi: in, in, in your kind of space? No, it’s a, yeah, it’s a very interesting topic and we actually have invested this one [00:47:00] Swedish company that went, I think they’re now at 17 million, a Rrr, uh, three month old.

Jussi: So three months since launch. Of course, the company’s a bit, yeah,

Josua: yeah. 17 million euros in A-R-A-R-R, so it’s like, that’s insane. It’s pretty insane. Yeah. I mean, have you, just to [00:47:15] put into context, we’ve not seen anything like that before, right?

Jussi: No. No, I don’t think so. I think they claim to be the fastest growing company out of Europe ever.

Jussi: Yeah. It’s their own claim. Maybe it’s true. I don’t know. Maybe not, but it’s pretty extraordinary and, and I guess it just shows to. [00:47:30] Chose to say that that, well, first of all, this AI is pretty revolutionary mm-hmm. In many ways that it, it allows like new ways of, of solving old problems. And that’s of course a very [00:47:45] interesting kind of a point in time always, that you might have a tech company born 10 years ago who built a solution without the AI layer, and now you can actually disrupt that market now with the next generation version of that kind of [00:48:00] driven by ai.

Jussi: So, so you can kind of solve all problems using AI in a new way, which is super interesting and can potentially allow for really, really fast growth. Um, and, and then of course, like secondary, the amount of [00:48:15] resources. Sheer kind of coding power needed to get stuff out there has been cut to a, a fraction of what it used to be only a couple of years ago.

Jussi: Mm-hmm. And that’s of course for a startup, it allows them to challenge the incumbents way faster and [00:48:30] with way less resources than they could have done a couple of years ago. And, and that’s a pretty fundamental shift. And I, I think it that makes this current point in time, one of the, probably the best [00:48:45] point in time ever to, to become founder and, and start a company because of you have this sudden availability of, of tooling and resources that were not there before.

Josua: Yeah.

Jussi: That allow you to, to challenge all kinds of models, all kinds of [00:49:00] companies, all kinds of ways of working. Yeah. In ways that haven’t been done before. And of course the startups, ’cause they have nothing to lose, they will of course. Make the most of it. I mean, try everything out and, and it’s transformative.

Jussi: It’s gonna be transformative [00:49:15] in many, many, many industries. Uh, and of course, I mean, I think it’s a great opportunity and I, I, I think I was, again, I guess we mentioned Mark Andre, and, uh, I don’t wanna talk about him too much, but I, so I heard him on some podcast saying that [00:49:30] when he. It was a tech entrepreneur in the nineties, uh, putting together Mosaic and Netscape, the browsers that he thought that it had already been, everything had already been done.

Jussi: All the opportunities are gone and gone. I’m too late to the game. It’s nine mid nineties. Right. [00:49:45] And it’s so easy to always think that, Hey, we’re now too late to the game. I shouldn’t all, everything, all the cool stuff that has been done already. And, and I don’t think we could be more wrong in a way that mm-hmm.

Jussi: That this is the best time to ever do, to, to build something [00:50:00] because of you don’t need that many resources. You have all the tooling available. Anybody who can’t even code can create products, digital products. Mm-hmm. Uh, you can move crazy fast. Uh, I think it’s a super interesting point in time and the startups will [00:50:15] definitely, like, make most out of it for sure.

Jussi: Uh, so, so very interesting to see what, what comes, yeah. What comes out of it

Josua: that’s an interest, interesting perspective. And I, I feel like there used to be this meme that, you know, you have this person with a great [00:50:30] idea. They’re looking for a technical co-founder who can actually build it.

Josua: Yeah.

Josua: Yeah. But that’s not even, I mean yeah.

Josua: Technical and coding is still needed. Yeah. But like you could say, you can build, like you said, you can build an MVP Yeah. Depending on what it is. But you can build incredible [00:50:45] things with zero, just prompt engineering. Yeah. Yeah. It’s No, for sure,

Jussi: for sure. I mean, if, if somebody is really de determined and tells me, tells me that, Hey, I’ve been working on this for six months and I can’t find a CTO.

Jussi: Yeah. Therefore I have not gotten anywhere. It’s a huge red flag. Because [00:51:00] if this person is really determined, I mean, he or she could have done that MVP just by, by using all this modern tooling now, uh, ultimately, of course you need architecture. You need all kinds of kinda [00:51:15] more like deeper technical know-how, I mean, we, we are not gonna replace CTOs.

Jussi: Of course not. Yeah. But, but even though CTOs can get so much more done. Versus before with, with the modern tooling, uh, and be able [00:51:30] to move so much faster, like iterate, pivot so much faster, try things out so much faster than than ever before. So, so yes. Uh, and then this type of, I think it’s a, a debate, debate that, that people have been having that, when do we have the first [00:51:45] company, like a unicorn that is like a single person run business, right?

Jussi: I don’t, I don’t think we’ve seen it yet. Uh, but, but like, will it happen? How fast will it happen? I think it’s bound to happen. Somebody just, you know, builds a loan out of garage, something [00:52:00] that goes so big that it, you know, it,

Josua: it, that’s so, so crazy. I, I read that as well and the first time I heard it I was like, yeah, it’s probably gonna happen.

Josua: But it felt like very remote. But now when you start seeing these things, it’s like, oh, it’s actually not that far away. Yeah. I, I think it’s so crazy when I just [00:52:15] think of. Take the companies in Finland that have a market cap of, of over over a billion, there’s not that many. And some of them are huge. I mean mm-hmm.

Josua: Think about the operations that they have and then there’s this one person. Yeah. It just feel like there’s something is in incre [00:52:30] incredibly, it’s happening. The value capture of the, the new economy. Yeah. It’s like insane.

Jussi: And that’s tech for you? I mean, yeah. There’s so much, I mean, tech has driven all value creation, almost all value creation now in the last 10, 15 years.

Jussi: And it’s just gonna, it’s just gonna go faster and faster. [00:52:45] And then, I mean, let’s not make this too much into politics, but somehow we need to figure out also here in Finland, like how do, how do we get, be, become more tech? We’ve always perceived ourselves as tech, but like how tech are we truly these days and how do we kind of [00:53:00] get, get more on board That train that moves so fast, uh, somehow we need to kind of stay up to speed ’cause that’s where the value is gonna be created.

Jussi: I. It’s not gonna be created by the kind of manufacturing old fashioned stuff or, or building like low [00:53:15] value add big server farms or even hydrogen plants here. I mean, that’s, that’s low value add, add stuff. They might be like big investments numbers wise at construction phase, many jobs, but like ultimately it’s low value add.

Jussi: Mm. So we need to somehow [00:53:30] become way more tech again, because we have been there, but somehow we’re kind of, somehow we’re, we’re being a bit left behind now.

Josua: Maybe got a bit too comfortable.

Jussi: Maybe. Maybe. But it happens. I mean, it’s always go in cycles for sure. And it, it’s natural. It goes [00:53:45] in cycles and there’s no reason why we will not get back there.

Jussi: We would definitely will get back there. Yeah. But it’s, it’s, I think it’s, it’s fundamentally important for Finland as a country to, to figure it out one way or another.

Josua: What, what’s your thought then if, if [00:54:00] AI is this, this great enabler, um, accelerant opportunity. Um, how, how do you coach startups, founders to be thinking about that?

Josua: Is it about do they learn, need to learn something technical, or do, do they just need to stay at the forefront [00:54:15] of what’s happening or they do, they just need to be experimenting and tinkering?

Jussi: Yeah.

Josua: Ex Yeah. Yeah,

Jussi: a few things. First of all, I, I think they need to be tinkering and experimenting quite a bit to kind of figure out how to use it best.

Jussi: But then, of course, with any AI business [00:54:30] also there, you have to ultimately figure out the business model and especially kind of what makes the sustainable versus competition. And not in the long run, but actually in the medium run, like in one, two years, so that it’s somebody else that doesn’t just come and kind of [00:54:45] run over you.

Jussi: Right? So, so how do you build a data set that, that, that go gets better all the time? How, how do you create something proprietary that allows you to kind of not only move fast now. Lose all the business to somebody else in a year’s time. [00:55:00] ’cause that can also happen that you kinda, you get this, this, so many people are now willing to try stuff out that you might be able to grow really fast for, for a short span of time now with some novel AI approach.

Jussi: Just to see competition catch up in six [00:55:15] months and then kind of losing the ability to really make any money with that. Mm-hmm. So, so kinda what’s the logic behind your AI approach that, that, that is sustainable? Is it like a data set that you, you build? Yeah. Is it something else that you build that, that, that makes you better gradually [00:55:30] over time?

Jussi: Uh, so those are also important things to figure out. And, and it is still so early that, that many founders kind of, I don’t, like, not all of them yet understand. Well enough, the logic [00:55:45] behind these LLMs and how this actually works. Like you need to understand the fundamental logic behind, in order to come up with the kind of the business model that makes sense or the solution that makes sense.

Jussi: So it’s about trying things out. It’s about tinkering, but [00:56:00] it’s also about like understanding, gonna fundamental level how these things behave. Mm-hmm. How they will look like in a year’s time so that you can kind of position yourself in a correct way, uh, to what’s gonna kinda the next phase of development.

Jussi: ’cause it’s moving [00:56:15] fast and you need to understand where will this be in a year’s time? Uh, ’cause easily what can happen now is that you end up building something that grows really fast in the beginning.

Josua: Mm-hmm. But

Jussi: then there’s no kind of, no real suta sustainability Yeah. Behind that [00:56:30] approach. Uh, and then, and kind of be mindful of that.

Jussi: Uh, but it’s fascinating. I mean, on many levels it’s fascinating.

Josua: It, it’s, it’s kind of scary how quickly things become commoditized. I’m thinking about the. The LLMs. Mm-hmm. Um, now they’re, they’re open [00:56:45] source.

Josua: Yeah.

Josua: Um, I mean, maybe not the, the best, best models, but very, very good models that just a few years ago, companies would’ve paid, I don’t know how much for like the, they were su, you know?

Josua: Yeah. It was like this Pando box kind of thing. And now it’s just out there for anyone.

Jussi: Exactly. We can of course, make [00:57:00] fun of fun, of deep seek and how that kind of won’t tell us about Tiana Men Square, whatever. Yeah, yeah. Right. And, and we should. But, but I mean, again, they showed us that, that with limited resources, you could do this so much more [00:57:15] efficiently.

Josua: Mm-hmm.

Jussi: Uh, put together stuff so much more efficiently, uh, and it, it’ll evolve from this a lot further and it will become like, LLMs will become commoditized for sure. And again, what that, what is that, the implication of that to your business if you’re a founder? [00:57:30] Like what does it mean? It’s really gonna mean that there’s gonna be a lot more people and players in this space.

Jussi: The price levels are gonna go down whatever you’re building. So again, how do you position yourself in a way that. It gives you an edge. Mm. When the, that com commoditization [00:57:45] has, has happened when everything has kind of graduated or have gone down in price and and com there’s more competition and so forth.

Jussi: Yeah. So huge opportunities, but of course everybody’s playing the game now. Everybody’s there trying to do it. So you have to again, find your own [00:58:00] angle, your own edge, your own thing. Yeah. Your own approach, so to say, even within the edge with the, with the AI solutions.

Josua: Yeah. Uh, final question for you as, as we wrap up here.

Josua: Um, you’ve had, you know, before Antler you had, uh, [00:58:15] you know, pretty broad, broad kind range of experience from the, your launching your own companies and, and exiting them and working in established companies. Um, we didn’t get to touch upon that, but, but, um, now kind of from your time at Anad, what have been kind of, for [00:58:30] you, the biggest kind of takeaways or like eyeopening?

Josua: Is it about ai, is it about some other opportunity? Is there something like, some, like something that stands out that you’ve just been like. Wow. I could, I didn’t know, not did not know this because you’re in a seat that is still quite, [00:58:45] uh, privileged, I say in terms of getting the exposure to lots of different teams in a way that very few people in the Nordics are.

Jussi: No, it’s an excellent question. And, and, uh, yeah. What delights me at least is the, is the fact that, that I get to [00:59:00] work with a very diverse group of founders. I think we had like 15 nationalities in the previous batch. 15, 1, 5, 15. Wow. Uh, we had 45 ish people or something. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s quite a lot actually, and we’re gonna do the same now.

Jussi: Uh, and you never [00:59:15] know who, well, like, like day one ante, you never know who is the greatest, the best founder in this punch. And, and it surprises me all the time. It’s, it’s, it’s awesome. Uh, and that’s something that I kind of utilize me on a daily basis that I get to work with such a diverse [00:59:30] group of people, uh, in Finland.

Jussi: I. It’s, it’s not given, I mean, our, we are a small nation that is relatively homogeneous. So it’s, it’s, I think it’s super cool to be able to do that.

Josua: Yeah.

Jussi: Um, that delights me. Uh, when I [00:59:45] joined an, this was only like a year and a half ago, I didn’t expect this world to move this fast mm-hmm. When it comes to ai.

Jussi: So again, it’s, even though I should, I should have known in a way a year and a half ago, but I didn’t expect it to move this fast with [01:00:00] the way it has. So, again, a surprise, and I’m pretty sure there will be quite a few surprises even if we try to stay on top of all this, it, it always manages to catch a by surprise.

Jussi: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s, that’s the cool thing about, about what we do, [01:00:15] I guess. Yeah. It’s a lot of hard work. It’s a lot of kind of frustration. It’s a lot of difficult issues and discussions, but it’s, it’s at the same time, like super exciting to, to get to see people build cool stuff. [01:00:30] And then be proud of what they’re doing on a daily basis.

Jussi: That’s, I think is pretty, pretty special.

Josua: I, I, I, I must imagine that, uh, because, you know, most people work in, in inside bigger, bigger companies and, and the, and the big difference I find, uh, one of [01:00:45] them between startup founder, some are working in big companies. It’s a level of ownership. Yeah. Like, you’re surrounded by people who deeply care.

Josua: They’re excited, they’re optimistic. And I feel like that is a very, that’s a privilege, kind of like, ’cause most people are, [01:01:00] are, are surrounded by, by colleagues who, who do not really care and no one expecting that like it’s a job. Yeah. But, but getting that kind of optimism and that like a sense of urgency.

Jussi: Yeah. And there’s, there’s nothing wrong in that kind of Yes, exactly. It’s just a job. It’s okay. Yeah. But I [01:01:15] mean, I love the word ownership. Yeah. I, I think that’s what it’s all about, like ownership responsibility that comes with it. I, I think it’s a, it’s kind of put, kind of puts it all together nicely. And that’s what it’s all about.

Jussi: And it’s. That’s the kind of [01:01:30] people we wanna work with and those kind of teams we wanna work with. Yes. I guess anybody would want to that actually take ownership in whatever they’re doing.

Josua: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. I, uh, it was a, it was really good conversation. I, you know, could have gone on for much, [01:01:45] much longer.

Josua: Yeah, absolutely. We can do a follow up, but at some point in, with all the Ai, ai stuff that’s happened, there’s probably gonna be a lot of stuff to talk about. But, uh, thank you so much. Good luck with the new fund. Good luck with the new batch and, uh, all the work that you and the team are doing [01:02:00] helping finish in Nordic, uh, startups.

Josua: Startups. That’s, uh, I think it’s really, really good. Really important work.

Jussi: Thanks. I really enjoyed it. It was a nice discussion.