Building Europe’s most loved hospitality brand with Bob W. CEO Niko Karstikko

3 takeaways from the conversation with Niko Karstikko

Identify the Gaps in Market Standards and Customer Expectations

Niko and his team at Bob W. noticed the highly fragmented nature of the short-stay rental market compared to the consistency offered by traditional hotels. While short-term rentals lacked standardization, hotels often didn’t cater to modern travelers seeking local experiences and self-sufficiency. Bob W. bridges this gap by providing consistent, high-quality stays with the comforts of home—such as kitchens and washing machines—in locations that give travelers an authentic local experience. This hybrid approach is aimed at creating a new hospitality category, tailored for travelers who mix business with pleasure and stay for varied durations.

Embrace Technology to Enhance Efficiency and Experience

While many companies view technology as a tool for efficiency, Bob W. harnesses it to improve guest experiences. By automating aspects of operations, such as cleaning, logistics, and guest communications, Bob W. keeps overhead low while providing a seamless experience. For example, they’ve streamlined their check-in process, and their technology-based operations model allows guests to reach “Bob,” their virtual host, within minutes. This tech-driven approach is more than operational—it’s an experience enabler that creates a five-star feel without the need for extensive on-the-ground staff.

Strategic Market Expansion: Prioritize Credibility and Brand Legitimacy

For Bob W., growth wasn’t about expanding rapidly but planting strategic seeds in key European cities. By establishing credibility in competitive hospitality markets like London, Helsinki, and Madrid, they positioned the brand as a legitimate player in international circles. Bob W. also diversified customer acquisition strategies, balancing B2B, OTAs (online travel agencies), and direct bookings, to adapt to both consumer and business travelers. Each new location is an opportunity to deepen Bob W.’s presence and build brand recognition across Europe.

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Podcast transcript

[00:00:10] Intro: Growth Pod is brought to you by Genero, a leading growth agency in the [00:00:15] Nordics. We interview marketing experts, business leaders, and entrepreneurs to uncover the stories and strategies behind profitable growth.

[00:00:27] Josua: Nico, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, [00:00:30] Joshua. Um, before we get started on, on, on what we’re here to talk about, Bob W., um, I, I would love to get some, um, You know, if you could share about your background, because I think you have a really colorful background. You’ve worked at a lot of different companies, you’ve lived abroad, studied [00:00:45] abroad.

[00:00:45] Josua: So, yeah, give us a kind of a brief, brief, uh, summary of, uh, what led you up to this point. Sure. So, so,

[00:00:52] Niko: so, I mean, I, I grew up, I grew up in Helsinki City Center as a kid and went, went to an English school. And then, then because of parents [00:01:00] work, moved to London. Uh, uh, for, for like high school and then university in the States and more, uh, studies in Paris.

[00:01:07] Niko: So really got that sort of, uh, bug about going abroad and, and witnessing different cultures and, and, uh, be, [00:01:15] you know, uh, live in this sort of, let’s call it cosmopolitan life for, for, for lack of a better word. And, uh, then. Because I’d seen my parents both being entrepreneurs, the ups and the downs, I was like, you know what, I’ve been seeing in these [00:01:30] schools that you’ve got these well to do families that are doing corporate jobs and they’re, they’re, they’re, you know, expats and this kind of thing and living the good life.

[00:01:37] Niko: It’s like, why would I do Entrepreneurship, I just want the upside, so I’m going to work for corporate. So then, then I was telling myself for ages, it’s [00:01:45] like, okay, I’m, I’m, I’m going to be a corporate man. That’s what I’m going to do. And, uh, and that’s why I pushed myself in the career. So, so, um, you know, worked in the States and, uh, for, for, for banking and, and for, uh, Finnish engineering company, [00:02:00] Metso as well.

[00:02:02] Niko: And then, uh, um, then did suit and tie career in London after university studies and finance or, uh, in private jets first at net jets, which is a Berkshire Hathaway company and, uh, [00:02:15] and in, in digital, digital marketing. And, uh, and then subsequently, uh, worked in, worked in banking at Barclays and, you know, it was like trying to put a, a round peg into a square hole, uh, [00:02:30] But I told myself, you know, Hey, I want to be a banker or a management consultant and, you know, earn my stripes and, you know, find, you know, this sort of hardworking, motivated environment around me and honestly didn’t fit.

[00:02:41] Niko: But it was a good school for, you know, I mean, I’m [00:02:45] clearly carved out of this sort of entrepreneurial wood. Um, you know, this sort of Propeller head, uh, hustler, idea man, salesman, uh, product guy. But, uh, you know, doing that being in such a structured organization, even though it was [00:03:00] grinding teeth, it kind of taught you to be organized.

[00:03:02] Niko: It taught you to be like, uh, you know, um, have good business acumen as they would say in business schools. Um, but then the, eventually the tie was getting a little too tight around the neck. [00:03:15] And, uh, uh, I decided, uh, you know, I wanted to start a business and I, I, I applied to, uh, as a guise to the master’s, um, uh, entrepreneurial program in Aalto University in Helsinki, uh, as we know, school’s [00:03:30] free in Finland.

[00:03:30] Niko: So it’s a good excuse for a career break. And I figured I’d go and start a business in Helsinki, uh, a tech business. And if I, if I screwed it up, I’d tell everybody I’m here for the studies. And if I do well, then, well, then I can. [00:03:45] And, uh, and that’s, that’s when, uh, started this fitness activities marketplace, um, uh, on, on web and iOS and, and other platforms, which was basically 15, 000 gyms, yoga studios, rock climbing arenas in one [00:04:00] app, and you can, you know, um, Pick, uh, uh, you know, find new activities, find new facilities, book classes, buy memberships, etc.

[00:04:09] Niko: And facilitate that through the app. With really this sort of mission of, uh, lead, [00:04:15] helping people lead healthier lives by finding, uh, more engaging activities or better facilities to, to do their fitness and as a result, uh, leaving more, leading more active lives. And that was, so that was, that was kind of the backdrop.

[00:04:29] Niko: And, uh, [00:04:30] um, yeah. Then, uh, started with an American guy based out of Queens, uh, in New York. So I was always traveling back and forth and here I am all of a sudden, there’s no banking bonuses anymore. Uh, so I’m a broke startup [00:04:45] entrepreneur and I needed to make some extra money. So there was this new platform called Airbnb.

[00:04:50] Niko: So I was renting my, my, uh, apartment when I was on the road. And then over the years, as we were building SportsCenter, you know, Got an investment apartment, a [00:05:00] brother’s investment apartment, and created this kind of like side hustle of seven apartments. And that, that’s kind of been the backdrop towards, towards, uh, uh, this, you know, the eventual venture with Bob W.

[00:05:13] Niko: Um, loved hosting the [00:05:15] people, loved making the money. Um, my apartments were some of the best ranked in Helsinki in terms of, uh, financial performance and, uh, or top line performance and in terms of ratings based on, based on the data that I could get. Um, But of [00:05:30] course, at that point you’re thinking, Man, this whole Airbnb world is such an amateur show.

[00:05:35] Niko: If you were actually in control of the technology, the hardware, the IOT devices, and you had the commercial resources of a hotel chain or a [00:05:45] real estate developer to create a space, you could actually create something that, you know, for the modern traveler that’s mixing business with pleasure, Uh, spending a longer time on the road and trying to satisfy a variety of different [00:06:00] use cases whilst they’re on the road.

[00:06:02] Niko: It could create something that wouldn’t just match the expectation of hotels, but would actually exceed it. Um, uh, uh, for the generation that isn’t looking for a hotel. And that really was kind of the [00:06:15] backdrop there. And then, finally, before, before we got started with, with Bob W., then I went to travel in Asia after I had sold my, my last business.

[00:06:25] Niko: And, uh, with, with SportsCenter. And, you know, I wanted to, you know, [00:06:30] Catch break, find yin yang or zen or whatever I could get my hands on. Uh, cause it felt like I’ve been burning the candle on all ends. Not just, uh, uh, uh, uh, and, uh, So then I went to, then I went to [00:06:45] Asia to travel and there, of course, started feeling this, having been this early adopter of Airbnb, started feeling this fatigue towards the experience.

[00:06:53] Niko: You know, do you trust the host? Do you trust the pictures? Yeah, I trust the pictures, but is it in the ghetto? Does the [00:07:00] washing machine actually work? So, these kind of hit or miss of this sort of very amateur experience, and, um, And then, then, uh, it was just easier to end up in the Hiltons and the Marriotts of the world, the [00:07:15] big hotel chains, even though that wasn’t exactly what you were looking for, and you’d end up washing your clothes in the sink in the bathroom kind of thing.

[00:07:22] Niko: So that’s, that’s the story before Bob W.

[00:07:25] Josua: Okay. Uh, it’s super interesting, I think, just how, you know, how [00:07:30] everything, um, you started off with something completely different, and then You know, using that as a side hustle and then that created the insight. Uh, so safe to say it was like your experiences as a Airbnb host that led you to identify this market gap.

[00:07:42] Niko: Yeah, for sure. And a traveler.

[00:07:43] Josua: And a traveler. [00:07:45] Um, and then you started it together with a German guy. So how did you guys meet? How did you, did you know him from, from, from before? Or how did that end, end up happening? So,

[00:07:52] Niko: so I mentioned, uh, I used university master’s program as an excuse to get started on the business.

[00:07:58] Niko: And, um, [00:08:00] we were, um, I was talking to the first, I was in like Alto, Alto’s startup sauna and hanging out in those sort of Alto University, which is a very vibrant startup community around it. And I talked to the first investors. They’re like, yeah, [00:08:15] cool. We like the idea, but why don’t you send us a financial model over?

[00:08:19] Niko: And even though I’d studied finance as a bachelor’s, I couldn’t really get something legitimate together. But there was actually a class around financing, which was related to startup financing. And so I showed up to this [00:08:30] class. And there, there, uh, you know, the teacher said, Hey, pick a real or imaginary startup and you can partner up with somebody in class and, uh, build a financial model.

[00:08:42] Niko: I thought this was a godsend. Like, this was exactly [00:08:45] what I was looking for. It was going to be free. And there was this one, uh, Smart ass German kid who was studying abroad, which is already questionable because, you know, study abroad kids aren’t supposed to show up to class anyways. But, uh, this very smart German guy who was outdoing everybody [00:09:00] in class, even the teacher, putting him into his place as well.

[00:09:04] Niko: And, uh, so I walked over to Sebastian and, uh, said, Dude, I’ve got a unicorn on my hands, you gotta help me out. And with that, Sebastian effectively for the [00:09:15] semester became the de facto CFO and, and with that, uh, uh, you know, we raised the first 400, 000 euros of, of venture money, um, and, uh, um, you know, and, but we loved, even though, [00:09:30] and then he went and built his career, um, We decided to stay in touch, uh, because, you know, uh, even though we’re completely opposite sides of the spectrum.

[00:09:40] Niko: Yeah. He’s this German stereotype on steroids and I’m this idea man, [00:09:45] salesman, product guy.

[00:09:45] Josua: Yeah.

[00:09:46] Niko: Um, we got along super well and we really appreciated this polarity of skill sets. Um, so, you know, uh, I kind of kept this list of, you know, potential co founders. It was always damn [00:10:00] short, uh, and Sebastian was always on the top of the list.

[00:10:02] Niko: So we stayed in touch and he lived most of the time in Berlin. So whenever I stopped by, we’d go grab some beers and, uh, and, and go out for a night in the town and, and stayed in touch about different businesses and stuff like that. Then [00:10:15] eventually that’s how we, we ended up together when then I was, On that six month break traveling Asia, and you know, trying to find myself in a Muay Thai boxing class in the middle of nowhere in a small island in Thailand.[00:10:30]

[00:10:30] Niko: Um, and the idea was coming together. And so, called up Sebastian and says, Hey, what about this thing? And, you know, started understanding that, you know, Okay, the hotel market’s super consolidated, and meanwhile the short stay rental’s [00:10:45] super fragmented, and we’ve got an opportunity here. And that’s, that’s how we then met up in Greece out of all places, uh, a few, few months after that.

[00:10:54] Niko: And, uh, cause we were actually, we ended up investing in a property that could [00:11:00] have been the first Bob W. Uh, it didn’t work out. Uh, uh, I mean the, the investment worked out, but it didn’t turn into a Bob W. Uh, But, uh, figured, figured, uh, well, well, let’s give it a try. Athens is a cool city and, and vibrant.

[00:11:13] Niko: And at that time it was on the up [00:11:15] after all that financial turmoil they’d been going through for a decade. So we kind of took that shot. So then, and that long windedly, we ended up in Helsinki and, and, and starting the business then eventually in 2018.

[00:11:29] Josua: So [00:11:30] I think it’s fascinating how, well, first, I think a lot of these stories are just like that.

[00:11:34] Josua: It’s not a, you don’t set out with this plan. It’s, it’s very, um, it just kind of, kind of happens, but it requires that courage to take, um, to spot an opportunity and go for it. [00:11:45] Um, reach out to that guy, you know, your co founder and, and pitch him on, get him excited about the idea, I guess, you know, having spent some time in Germany, I can imagine if he’s a German stereotype, he’s not going to be the guy who’s like immediately like, okay, the startup idea, but this unicorn, it’s, uh, it’s [00:12:00] looks, it looks great.

[00:12:01] Josua: Let’s do it.

[00:12:01] Niko: I think I got lucky because he had just been a part of a massive exit of a, of a, Opticians chain, uh, online and, and, uh, in, in the duck region, the German speaking [00:12:15] region. And, uh, that was sold to a big player and his lockup was just about to end. And he was so sick and tired of working for a big corporate.

[00:12:22] Niko: So I think I called it the right time. I could have pitched the toilet paper idea and he would have been up for it. So

[00:12:29] Josua: super excited just [00:12:30] to get out of the, the, the suit, suit and tie. Um, okay, before we go to Bob W, was there anything in your first startup? I mean, that was like three, four years. Yeah, I think, uh, closer to five, yeah.

[00:12:40] Josua: Okay, closer to five. Was there any kind of key lessons, um, that you [00:12:45] took from that startup that kind of developed as you were traveling in Asia? Like, any, any major mistakes that you were, like, key not to repeat or anything that you were, like, yes, that, that was, like, the key to success there? Because I don’t think you mentioned it, but you exited that, that startup.

[00:12:59] Josua: So, yeah, any, [00:13:00] anything that you took with you? That was really instrumental in shaping Bob W. Yeah,

[00:13:05] Niko: I think the first one is just we talked about co founders. The most important recruitment ever you do starting a business is the [00:13:15] founders. I would never start a business alone. Uh, certainly again, but, but, uh, uh, historically usually picked another partner as well.

[00:13:25] Niko: Uh, because even though I, I think I’ve got some strengths, I certainly have some [00:13:30] amazing weaknesses as well. And, uh, to appreciate that as a really important piece. Um, so picking up founder and I, I think in my first startup, you know, uh, I partnered up with a, a great guy who I got along with really well.

[00:13:43] Niko: And, and, and, you know, [00:13:45] we were good friends in college, uh, in the States. But the challenge is we were too similar. We were both sales, marketers, idea men. Um, and, but then eventually somebody’s got to [00:14:00] figure out financials and strategy and operations and, uh, you know, systematize the startup and the business.

[00:14:07] Niko: And neither of us were cut out to do that. So we had a gap. In the sort of founder capabilities. [00:14:15] And, uh, I think we really suffered from that, uh, over the years. Uh, and that, that, uh, you know, re probably, you know, um, ended up being the reason why it

[00:14:26] Josua: didn’t leave to the potential that it could. Okay. Yeah. So polarity of [00:14:30] like skill sets and maybe personality as well.

[00:14:31] Niko: Yeah, absolutely. And some, then you’ve got to have something that ties you in, which should be values. And so. Then another piece, of course, is really aggressively working towards product market fit. Um, [00:14:45] And, uh, uh, and that was something with, with SportsCenter that we, we, we struggled with and we held on too long as, as opposed to doing quick pivots or, or, you know, trying new things constantly as opposed to, okay, well, it [00:15:00] works on this aspect, but hey, we’ll get monetization eventually worked out and this kind of thing and, and I think that that is something then that me and Sebastian and Bob W have learned from that is that We’re still to this day, if we feel like we need [00:15:15] to change direction, we’re very quick at doing that.

[00:15:17] Niko: I think we’re very lucky. We’ve had product market fit for quite some time. Uh, but that’s not a constant either. So it’s important to stay on your feet. And of course, as business matures, you’ve got different challenges. And, and those were, I think the sort of [00:15:30] really the top two learnings. And maybe if there’s a third one is probably is, you know, I went so all in, On the first startup in terms of, uh, my own health.

[00:15:42] Niko: My own financial health. You’re [00:15:45] kind of like, no, no, I don’t deserve to get paid for the longest time, even when you’re, you know, you’re funded, et cetera. And then you’re, you know, all of a sudden the bank starts calling you and the collector agency start calling you. You know, you gotta, the basics need to work in your life for you to get going.

[00:15:59] Niko: And [00:16:00] I think that was between the health and relationships and financial health and all that. I was too selfless to the point that it

[00:16:07] Josua: started hurting me, which then hurt the business. Okay. It sounds like, um, A lot of, a lot of maturing that took place that probably, [00:16:15] I mean, if you had not gone through that journey, then you would not have been in the position to, to maximize, fulfill the potential that Bob W has.

[00:16:21] Josua: I agree. Yeah, for sure. How, you mentioned product market fit, so what did that journey look like with Bob W and was there a point where you, [00:16:30] Felt like you, like, Oh, we got it. Like this actually is going to

[00:16:33] Niko: work. So, so yeah, yeah. I think that’s an interesting question. Maybe if I sort of finish up on how we got started and then, uh, then we can discuss, discuss how we search for [00:16:45] that product market fit.

[00:16:47] Niko: Um, I think, you know, we ended up, so, so we ended up talking on the phone obviously, but I’m in Asia and Sebastian’s in Europe, uh, you know, suffering his lockup and. Looking at the [00:17:00] market and understanding, okay, you’ve got 7 million plus hotel rooms and just in Europe alone, super, uh, consolidated market with brands and standards with brands representing standards and factual standards, like five star, four star, three [00:17:15] star hotels where consumers know what they get.

[00:17:18] Niko: Operators know what to operate, what services to offer, and real estate developers know what to build even before they decide who’s, is it going to be a Hilton or a Marriott because the standards are

[00:17:27] Josua: so rigid. So, they can [00:17:30] start building, uh, this building not knowing who’s going to, if it’s going to be, what logo is going to be on the front.

[00:17:35] Josua: Exactly.

[00:17:36] Niko: Okay.

[00:17:36] Josua: Exactly. It’s

[00:17:37] Niko: such a standardized space. Now, contrast that with, you know, Europe’s over four million short stay rental listings. There’s no big [00:17:45] brands. There’s no standards. It’s a super fragmented market. Biggest player is the, um, You know, the mom and pops. I’ve got one, two, three apartments, um, Uh, in, in residential properties.

[00:17:58] Niko: And then, [00:18:00] you know, and you don’t even have a name for it, short stay rental, short, uh, you know, vacation rental, holiday rentals, apartment hotel, apart hotel, service departments, extended stay, which Americans call for some reason, even though it can be short, equally short stays in hotels, et [00:18:15] cetera. So, and, which is a great opportunity for a brand to define who you are, by the way.

[00:18:20] Niko: And then, you know, And, and at that point, you know, we, we start understanding, okay, we know what we’re going to do is we’re going to create a new category of [00:18:30] hospitality that’s a hybrid, that’s the best of both worlds, the best of the hotel experience and best of the short stay rental experience. Uh, the Airbnb experience, as consumers would call it, even though Airbnb doesn’t own, manage or rent a single apartment or a single, single hotel or whatever.[00:18:45]

[00:18:46] Niko: So, uh, you know, from the hotels we would take the branded consistency, the promise. With a Bob W., you know what you get. There’s standards, there’s quality, there’s, there’s trust. Uh, and of course [00:19:00] the, the, the, the vibes of a, of a lifestyle hotel. Um, As well as the, uh, you know, the legality and the scale of it.

[00:19:08] Niko: We’re in commercial properties, uh, you know, that are legit hotel licenses. And, and, [00:19:15] uh, and because you do 50 apartments, you can actually get some pine power on the sofas or the interior architect to make it really nice. As opposed to having a single random apartment. And then from the short stays, we took that, uh, the utilities and amenities of a [00:19:30] home.

[00:19:31] Niko: So you can stay there for a night or two, but you’ve got the kitchens washing machines to stay for days, weeks, or months. Uh, but then we also took the, um, uh, the, um, hosting. So with Bob W, [00:19:45] uh, being the perfect host and then the local authenticity. So people go to Copenhagen to want to experience Copenhagen, not a generic hotel, having generic breakfast in a generic room, uh, in a generic restaurant.

[00:19:58] Niko: Um, And [00:20:00] so, we package this up into this lifestyle brand called Bob W. Bob W being that avatar of the perfect host. Bob is the best sort of Airbnb type host you’ve ever had, times ten. Uh, he’s an unbelievable guy. [00:20:15] Uh, you know, speaks ten languages. Well educated, we assume Harvard or, or, or Cambridge, we’re not quite sure.

[00:20:22] Niko: Uh, but at the same time, he’s super approachable. Very social, right there for you. He cares about the community. [00:20:30] He cares about sustainability, and that’s evident in his apartments and in his buildings. Um, Because, you know, we have the local artists on the wall, the lady down the road, the ceramist who did the coffee cups, um, different [00:20:45] sustainable choices.

[00:20:45] Niko: So you really, he’s brought that spirit into, into the apartments themselves. So they really satisfy that modern traveler’s needs of living like a local. And, uh, and then, um, uh, you know, unlike a normal host, [00:21:00] Unbelievably, the guy doesn’t sleep, have a lunch break, doesn’t even need to go pee. He answers your messages in less than two minutes on average.

[00:21:07] Niko: Uh, if you got a problem, call him. Uh, or, and, you know, if need be, one of his colleagues is going to be around the door in, in, in a few minutes. [00:21:15] Um, uh, and, so, Best of the Hotel, uh, packaged up into that lifestyle brand Bob W. And under the hood, the whole thing runs on technology. So, um, On the one hand, we get rid of, uh, we, we don’t need [00:21:30] a big chunk of the, um, the operational people.

[00:21:33] Niko: So, uh, we do about one seventh of, uh, the, uh, boots on the ground, the HR, to a comparable hotel, making comparable nightly rates. [00:21:45] Six seventh is the technology that we’ve built. And we give our cleaner superpowers, so they roam around the building. They become our quality control managers. They also become our procurement managers customizing the apartment as need be for each guest profile.[00:22:00]

[00:22:00] Niko: And, uh, which means that we can play that Tetris game a lot more efficiently than historically, uh, operational Tetris game a lot more efficiently than historical hotel. And then on the other side of the ball. It’s not about efficiency or just [00:22:15] about efficiency or moving the, um, you know, removing, uh, human resources and therefore human error, uh, in, in the, in the most, uh, human resource intensive industry in the world.

[00:22:27] Niko: But on the other hand, it’s about elevating the experience. So we’ve [00:22:30] got self service apps, which are. Unbelievably, um, uh, you know, intuitive and loved by the modern generation as witnessed by the taxi and the food apps and the plethora of apps that we use these days. But, and then, we, we have a marketplace.

[00:22:44] Niko: So we are a [00:22:45] full service. Uh, uh, hospitality operator. We’re a full service hotel or whatever you, a part hotel, whatever you want to call us. We’ve got gyms, we’ve got breakfast, we’ve got early check ins, late check outs, we’ve got packed fridge product where you get your, [00:23:00] uh, fridge full of food when you arrive, etc.

[00:23:02] Niko: Um, but actually, we don’t have any of the shared spaces. So, as a business model, we don’t need those shared spaces. Modern traveler wants to live like a local. So, within 500 meters of the neighborhood. [00:23:15] Through the marketplace, gym is free, breakfast, you can get the bed and breakfast rate, uh, with us, and you can have this amazing local, uh, restaurant breakfast experience, which I guarantee you is going to be a heck of a lot better than the breakfast I would have to make, or that, or [00:23:30] that a generic hotel, uh, can offer at a similar price point.

[00:23:33] Niko: So, um, so second part’s the marketplace, and third one is, of course, that amazing hosted experience, that empathetic host, Bob W., who’s always there for you. Um, Always looking out [00:23:45] for you, uh, and, uh, uh, and, and just elevating that experience with him being, um, You know, really making you feel that you’re a local now.

[00:23:53] Niko: Yeah. Because he’s got those, he’s there for you, he’s got the suggestions, he’s set the apartment up for you all just perfect, etc. [00:24:00] And that’s, that’s the, that’s the business model, um, and uh, so how do we get to that, um, is always a question. More of a wiggly

[00:24:08] Josua: story than, uh, than Because imagine this was not, I mean, this was a very compelling pitch.

[00:24:13] Josua: And I’m guessing this was [00:24:15] not the pitch that you were able to deliver at the first investor. No, no, no. So, so, uh,

[00:24:19] Niko: well, uh, just to wrap it up, I mean, today’s, well, let’s get to the vision later. So, um, Basically, when we got started, first we were thinking, okay, well, let’s create [00:24:30] a, uh, you know, let’s, let’s, uh, uh, get a commercial property and then, you know, we could also maybe manage some, some apartments around it.

[00:24:39] Niko: Um, uh, you know, and manage those, uh, apartments using the [00:24:45] hotel as a, or the apart hotel as a hub, um, additional properties. Um, but, but then, then, uh, uh, you know, the reality was, is that we couldn’t quite lock in a commercial property early enough. And we were in Helsinki, so [00:25:00] I had a couple of apartments that I was Airbnb ing in Helsinki.

[00:25:03] Niko: And, uh, So we started, we think, Hey, let’s use that as an MVP. Let’s get retrofitted lock systems. And we’ll start, you know, we’ll get a couple of individuals to rent their [00:25:15] apartments to us. Um, it wasn’t an on scene business model. You see that all over Europe and you see it with us. Uh, you see it in Finland as well.

[00:25:23] Niko: Uh, we did exactly that. We had like five apartments and, uh, Three [00:25:30] water damages, three water damages in three apartments within a three month period, which statistically should never happen. I mean, so we were like, okay, this is so much hassle for the cleaning, uh, for having five [00:25:45] apartments with five landlords with everybody’s got their own opinions.

[00:25:49] Niko: Then, then, you know, then we’re dealing with the water damages and of course makes the friction even higher with the owners. Um, and, and, um, Then at this [00:26:00] point, you know, we’re still thinking, okay, well, you know, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll get to that commercial apartments, but we should also make it work when these individual ones.

[00:26:06] Niko: And that’s when you started having these sort of stories in Finland around like a secret hotels. Um, uh, so there [00:26:15] was a lot of negative press around, uh, uh, a little bit different business model to what we had at the time. But in that sort of same sphere of like basically residential properties being used.

[00:26:26] Niko: Like a hotel. Um, and we thought, [00:26:30] oh man, this, this is not working out. We gotta get out of the whole, uh, you know, uh, residential properties thing. And uh, you know, we haven’t even gotten to building the tech yet. We’re just trying to use, use third party software and get the, the initial product [00:26:45] market fit and the experience working.

[00:26:47] Niko: And, you know, we talked to a bunch of Finnish landlords, like big companies, and they laughed us out of the room because one guy didn’t speak Finnish and the other guy didn’t speak real estate. So, uh, luckily my business [00:27:00] partner speaks the real estate part, but real estate’s a very local game. Yeah. Um, so.

[00:27:05] Niko: So then, uh, and, and, and just for the listeners, so we do management agreements and rental agreements of the whole properties. We don’t actually buy the properties, which is a [00:27:15] common thing in the, uh, in the hotel operator space. Um. So then through the startup circles, we got a couple of leads to talk to a few prop tech guys in Talon.

[00:27:26] Niko: So we thought, what the heck, uh, you know, let’s go have some beers in Talon. At [00:27:30] least we’ll, we’ll get a, we’ll get a 24 hour break from it. And so Sebastian was in Finland at the time where we spend most of the time in the summer house, like, uh, just trying to a parent’s summer house, trying to figure out how to, how to get this thing off the ground.

[00:27:43] Niko: And then went to, uh, so we [00:27:45] went to Talon. met, uh, PropTech guys there, who then suggested, okay, you gotta talk to this, uh, broker guy who does a lot of these short stay rental, uh, investment opportunities for investors. And, uh, Estonia got some more [00:28:00] flexible laws there of how it works out. So they were a step ahead of that in, in terms compared to Finland, where we were, we were sitting out with Sebastian and.

[00:28:09] Niko: Then we ended up, you know, the, the, we ended up meeting the guy. He’s like, uh, yeah, cool, yeah, I’ll keep in [00:28:15] mind, I’ve got nothing for you. And we, then we say, okay, well, well, yeah, let’s talk later. And then we get out of the cafe and we’re walking the same direction, up to the parking lot or something like that.

[00:28:24] Niko: And, uh, there’s a building in Teliskivitel, in the sort of hipster neighborhood, in, in, uh, uh, [00:28:30] the capital of Estonia. And there’s a building on the right which looks like it’s almost ready, but not quite. It’s like, oh, what’s this yellow building? He’s like, actually, I think that is an apart hotel. I actually think the owner is a Finnish dude.

[00:28:44] Niko: I’ll give him a [00:28:45] call. And then three days later, where we’ve got a handshake on our first apart hotel building and, uh, sorry, how many apartments were 41, 41 apartments, uh, and three months later, and that’s how we got started. [00:29:00] And it was very quick to see that. Okay. Customers absolutely love this. It’s going well.

[00:29:05] Niko: Consumers are going well. And then. Then, uh, um, September October 2019 started, and then we’re like, [00:29:15] uh, like, Alright, tourists are leaving, building is starting to be empty, uh, we better put these different use cases to use. And, uh, I better start a B2B program here or something like that. And then started [00:29:30] basically hounding everybody in the Estonian, and to a certain degree Finnish, startup ecosystem to, uh, rent the apartment for their relocations, for their project work, this kind of thing.

[00:29:42] Niko: And, uh, and that’s how we [00:29:45] made, basically figured out how to make it. More seasonable is today. We’ve got about 40 percent b2b 60 percent consumer, which was then the last leg of figuring it out Yeah, which is something we didn’t have to do for the individual apartments kind of tourist filled it up. Yeah, and [00:30:00] then And then so we really felt like wow, we’ve really found the product market fit.

[00:30:05] Niko: Let’s start to scale and then the pandemic hit And, uh, um, but I think there [00:30:15] we, and I know I’m veering off the question here about finding our product market fit, but it is a part of that story, which is during the pandemic, we were able to prove that unlike a hotel, which most hotels closed its [00:30:30] doors, we were actually able to, um, um, Uh, you know, because of those kitchens and those washing machines and those sort of utilitarian aspects of our Yeah.

[00:30:40] Niko: Of our, of our spaces, uh, you know, we were able to be a heck [00:30:45] of a lot more resilient. All of a sudden we’ve got, you know, policemen and nurses Mm-Hmm. , uh, who are, who are there for, you know, work and relocating expats who want to be during the pandemic closer to their families. We were able to fill it up with something that we weren’t normally filling it up with, which [00:31:00] is majority, you know, tourists.

[00:31:02] Niko: Yeah. And, uh. And that kind of proved to ourself and our investors that, uh, you know, we can do it. And that’s how we managed to still get the A round, even though the pandemic was closing in on us. Uh, sorry, not a round seed [00:31:15] round from, from Danish investor by founders. And, uh, uh, and, you know, really thankful that they put their trust in us anyways.

[00:31:22] Niko: And then we used most of the beginning, first half of the pandemic. Really building out our tech. So at that point we’d have been in like no code [00:31:30] policies. We’re, we’re not building anything before we figure out exactly what the product market fit is, and then we will start building tech around it. And, um, and that’s exactly what we did.

[00:31:39] Niko: And then the second half, we actually started then expanding and finding new properties because [00:31:45] nobody else had the, Oh, you know, guts to move and we just figured out what the heck we’re, we’re gonna, we’re gonna sign up properties. The world’s going to open up anyways, one way or another. And, uh, and, um, and yeah, and then the end result is today we’ve got, uh, uh, [00:32:00] we’ve got, uh, um, uh, we’ve got.

[00:32:02] Niko: Properties in 17 cities in 10 countries. Um, we are Europe’s best ranked international hotel chain based out of public ratings, uh, booking. com and [00:32:15] Expedia and all those, um, uh, which, which is something we’re super proud of, even though we don’t consider ourselves a hotel, but the, the, the ratings ratings go in the same batches and, uh, And it really tunes to this eventual mission, [00:32:30] which was never, you know, unclear in the big picture of it, but then it got really sharpened, which is to create this five star experience for every guest, every visit at scale, while transitioning the hospitality industry into a sustainable one.

[00:32:44] Niko: So, [00:32:45] it’s this obsession about the five star experience. And how do you get five stars from every guest and understanding that actually technology plays the key role in that. Um, that it’s important to understand the trends that give you [00:33:00] five stars, but almost more important to understand the trends that of the non five star reviews.

[00:33:07] Niko: And then when you systematically start fixing the biggest problems one at the time, eventually you’re able to create [00:33:15] something that really meets and exceeds the expectation for this modern generation of traveler. And I think that. The product market fit there is really evident from the reviews, our NPS score is like 78, which is literally the best in the industry that [00:33:30] we’ve heard, um, or not just heard, which we have the publicly available data to.

[00:33:36] Niko: And it’s this, you know, really pushing us towards this vision of being the most loved hospitality brand in Europe. But really, ultimately, we’re a [00:33:45] tech company operating

[00:33:45] Josua: hospitality. It’s uh, it’s fascinating and so much so much in there to unpack. Let’s uh, let’s start with the fundraising part. Sure.

[00:33:55] Josua: You’re able to close the seed round in what was must have been the most [00:34:00] difficult time in the hospitality industry in the last since World War Two. I don’t know. Um, so that that’s fascinating. And you’ve raised personally over 100 million euros across startups and 80 or something for, for, uh, 70, [00:34:15] 70 million euros in terms of published.

[00:34:17] Josua: 70 million. Okay. Um, which is, that puts you in a very small club. Um, not just in Finland, but I think, I think globally. So what’s the, what’s the kind of, uh, secret to fundraising or, uh, yeah. How [00:34:30] have you gone about that? Um, I

[00:34:32] Niko: mean, I, I think ultimately, you know, you need to have an idea that you believe in.

[00:34:38] Niko: Um, you need to have, um, believable enough plan, and usually [00:34:45] in the beginning it’s less believable, and as you mature as a company, it needs to be more believable. And, uh, and you need to be able to translate that vision, the, with energy and enthusiasm. And, [00:35:00] uh, And with with the believability, and I think for for me, I’ve always been very, very passionate about the businesses I’ve done, and they’ve always been, you know, solving problems that are close to [00:35:15] heart.

[00:35:15] Niko: And having lived in five countries, uh, you know, been very much living in multiple times in that gray area, not the few nights in a hotel or one year plus rental contract, but the gray area in between days, weeks, [00:35:30] months. Yeah. That, you know, this kind of, it’s been very, very close to, close to solving problems that are for me.

[00:35:37] Niko: Mm hmm. Of course, then you need to make sure that the addressable markets bigger than just me. [00:35:45] And, um, but I, I think that, that being able to, you know, you having built an idea and a plan, um, that’s believable enough. Or, or it’s so [00:36:00] believable to you that you believe in it and you translate that passion towards it and, and, uh, into the vision and how you, how you pitch that.

[00:36:08] Niko: I think that’s, at the end of the day, uh, the, the, the most important thing. Now, we talked [00:36:15] about co founders. Um, I think the reason why we’ve been so successful at fundraising at Bob W. is very much because of our tandem. So again, I’m the idea man, salesman, product guy, blah, blah, blah, turbo [00:36:30] charged, uh, energy, all that.

[00:36:31] Niko: And Sebastian has that gravitas that, uh, he, he knows his shit. He knows the finances, he knows the plans. Uh, he’s extremely meticulous. So I think [00:36:45] that combination of energy and vision combined with, uh, believability in, in having, you know, uh, somebody that can very systematically carve out the plan, uh, is, uh, is [00:37:00] a, an amazing combo.

[00:37:01] Niko: And that goes again, why it’s so important to pick the right co founder. Um, third one, I would say I’m losing count. Maybe it’s the third or fourth, um, uh, is, uh, which I’ve [00:37:15] always looked at quite carefully, which is what are, what are your. Um, uh, sort of validations, your, your sort of, um, There’s a term that I’ve used for it.

[00:37:28] Niko: Credibility factors? [00:37:30] Credibility factors. Okay, okay. That’s right. So, credibility factors is something that is extremely important to have. So, I don’t know. Let’s say you’re in the business of making the next amazing, uh, uh, [00:37:45] Coffee app. I don’t know. Judging coffees. Uh, let’s, let’s pick something, you know, you for, for you to get an investor who was, I don’t know, an early investor in, in Starbucks or the CEO of Starbucks would be a heck of a credibility factor then.

[00:37:59] Niko: Okay. Well, [00:38:00] we’re going to build tech around it. Well, you probably want the credibility factor that maybe one of the founders is a tech founder or, or, Hey, they built a similar app, but in a slightly different sector before. And then, you know, maybe there’s a, a third guy who, is, [00:38:15] has done a similar business model, maybe he’s an advisor or an early investor in the company who’s done a similar business model, but in an adjacent industry.

[00:38:23] Niko: And those aspects start tying in together, that you’ve got enough credibility factors and those change over time. [00:38:30] Eventually the credibility factors is numbers and EDA and, uh, All that and that keeps changing, but you got to be able to pull those credibility factors Well for one that you actually those [00:38:45] help you get to the right direction in your business in terms of in terms of getting the resources Figuring out the product market fit and then eventually scaling and then You know, and then as time goes [00:39:00] on, uh, you know, they, they change, but you always got to have those credibility factors, which are from an internal perspective, their resources from an external perspective, their credibility factors.

[00:39:11] Niko: And to have those in place, um, and sometimes [00:39:15] those are vain stuff, like, you know, for sure, like a good article and a legitimate piece of paper that, oh, this is super interesting. And that’s why it can go a long way. But you got to, you got to. You know, hunt for those credibility factors,

[00:39:27] Josua: which also translate into resource [00:39:30] for sure.

[00:39:30] Josua: And I think, I mean, I guess it’s about creating momentum. So you start off with, you know, maybe you’re not able to get the Starbucks CEO, but you’re able to get someone who was VP and you start building and building and building. Um, eventually you’ll have the number one coffee, latte app in the world.

[00:39:44] Josua: [00:39:45] Exactly. Hopefully. Um, okay. So that’s, um, that’s really good on advice On, on fundraising, I think, and, and, and the importance of enthusiasm, genuine enthusiasm combined with actually knowing what you’re doing. Yeah, [00:40:00] amen. Uh, the credibility. Um, speak a little bit about growth. So you mentioned 17 cities, 10 countries, I believe, across Europe.

[00:40:07] Josua: What’s been the strategy behind your go to market and your expansion? So, I mean, we’ve, we’ve,

[00:40:14] Niko: we’ve more than [00:40:15] doubled our size for four years straight. In terms of revenue? In terms of revenue, yeah. We’ve only had one year where we didn’t double in size.

[00:40:22] Josua: Where are

[00:40:23] Niko: you at roughly right now? So, so, so, can’t, can’t publicize the exact, exact number, [00:40:30] but we’re, we’re in the high tens of millions of euros.

[00:40:32] Niko: Uh, this year we’re doubling our size compared to last year. The year before that we tripled. The year before that we 8x’d. Um, And, uh, you know, we, we are, we are constantly [00:40:45] looking for more resources because we can, we can grow even faster if we would have more resources, right? So the engine engine works extremely well.

[00:40:54] Niko: So how do we, how do we expand? So first of all, you know, so, uh, finish in a [00:41:00] German dude, start a business with the finished dude in Finland, the German dude in Dublin, Ireland, um, Then you end up getting a couple of random apartments in Helsinki. And then nobody’s, neither of these [00:41:15] dudes have lived in Estonia, but then you find the first building there.

[00:41:18] Niko: Great, let’s get going there. Now, the trouble with startups and new companies, of course, is if you’re going to build a global phenomenon, our company’s vision is to be the most loved hospitality brand, [00:41:30] first in Europe and then globally. Um, um, You get started on that and you’re like, okay, most people in Europe haven’t even heard about Estonia or not most people, but a big chunk of certainly outside of Europe haven’t heard of Estonia, [00:41:45] which they should, by the way, which is fabulous society.

[00:41:47] Niko: And they’ve, they’ve, they’re, they’re, they’re, they’re a great example for many of us to follow. And then we’re in Estonia. So we’re like, okay, we need to, we need to build legitimacy here and need to grow. [00:42:00] So then we start looking for properties in London, England, because we’ve both lived there before, and then.

[00:42:07] Niko: In Finland, because that’s more of a home market. We think we can, you know, with Estonia, it’s close enough, 80 kilometers from the capital of [00:42:15] Helsinki. There’s enough legitimacy that we should be able to find properties. And that’s the challenge of our, even though we’re this dynamic tech company, this startup, uh, initially growing, uh, you know, You’re dealing with old school real estate people, you know, in [00:42:30] way past their midlife crisis and, uh, and gray hairs.

[00:42:33] Niko: So you’re dealing with this old school industry and that happens in a lot of startups, by the way, you have to deal with some aspect of the business with incumbencies.

[00:42:42] Josua: Yeah.

[00:42:43] Niko: And, um, [00:42:45] so then eventually, you know, we find the first property in Helsinki. Yeah. Um, and then we signed the third property in London.

[00:42:54] Niko: Why did we do that? Because again, if you’re trying to build a global phenomenon, you’re trying to get [00:43:00] onto the international foray. Sadly, when you’re in small enough markets, you’re going to be dismissed as, okay, yeah, you can, you can manage that small market, but how do you do in the, in the, in the big markets, the tough markets, you know, [00:43:15] UK, or depending on what your product is, but you know, let’s, let’s, let’s use.

[00:43:19] Niko: Consumer facing, uh, tech, tech companies, as an example, Berlin, London, Barcelona, uh, you know, uh, these kinds of really big cities, [00:43:30] Paris, etc. And so we, we figured, okay, we need to go big, and that’s why we really pushed for London. We had some advisors based out of London who were in the industry. Um, So, we were using those contacts to try to get into the conversations [00:43:45] and into the bids to get those management agreements and rental contracts.

[00:43:48] Niko: And we managed to do exactly that. And then, whilst we were waiting for London to go live, we actually stumbled on an opportunity in Madrid. And we’re like, okay, great. [00:44:00] Madrid’s another mega city. Let’s go in there. Um, and we, we got our fourth property live there. So Our strategy initially was first is create credibility by being in those world recognized [00:44:15] markets that are, uh, you know, competitive hospitality markets and show that, hey, we can still beat the market even though we’re in this competitive markets.

[00:44:24] Niko: And then we wanted to what we call plant the seeds. Uh, [00:44:30] in two different markets. So get the first property in the first country and the first city. Uh, um, why? Because in this space, again, you’re dealing with those local old school real estate guys and they very much look. Very [00:44:45] old fashioned way at business.

[00:44:46] Niko: So if we establish an entity, get revenues, have a banking relationship, that will help with the next property. So the first ones are the tough ones. So we wanted to do the tough work initially because we were product market was starting to be very, very clear at that [00:45:00] point. Um, and. It did slow us down and it made that also the deals were a lot more expensive for us.

[00:45:06] Niko: We had to, you know, cough up some cash, which we basically don’t have to do at all, uh, these days anymore. Um, and, [00:45:15] um, and that was, so it was about going into these, our focus cities, which are metropolitan areas with very good, uh, you know, um, very good, uh, um, transportation links and very much. So, there are [00:45:30] younger, dynamic cities that cater to this 20 to 45 year old urban middle class that mixes business with pleasure.

[00:45:35] Niko: Yeah. Um, on the road. So, so then, so we, we planted the seeds in the cities, and now our focus is, uh, or in [00:45:45] the countries, and now our focus is to actually deepen the penetration within those countries and within those cities. So for example, Helsinki, we’ve got, uh, five properties and the sixth one going live, uh, next spring.

[00:45:58] Niko: Uh, in London, we’ve got 12 or [00:46:00] 13 properties already. Uh, so London is by far our biggest market. Yeah. Uh, you know, in Germany, we’re live in. Five cities, uh, and our biggest pipeline is in Germany. Uh, but of course we want to create a pan European phenomenon. [00:46:15] It doesn’t mean we need to be in every metropolitan city in Europe.

[00:46:17] Niko: But we, we should have a network that gives, uh, uh, you know, ample coverage to particularly B2Bs. Yes. Uh, but of course consumers as well, so that we can be the go to choice in [00:46:30] this new category of hospitality, uh, that we are the pioneers of.

[00:46:33] Josua: Yeah. And I think, I don’t know the exact numbers, but I think you’re, I mean, you have thousands of, uh, of apartments, so that must put you in, in one of the leading European players, I’m guessing, in this space.

[00:46:43] Josua: Yeah, so, so we’ve [00:46:45] got, our

[00:46:45] Niko: portfolio is closing in on 4, 000 properties. Yeah. Um, and, uh, uh, yes, we’re, we’re, we’re in, in our sector where we’re, we’re

[00:46:55] Josua: in the top three. Got it. So with the expansion, you mentioned, um, the, the [00:47:00] idea behind it of, of planting those seeds and, and, and going into those, getting coverage in those competitive, competitive markets.

[00:47:05] Josua: Yeah. Um, how did you handle the customer acquisition side of it in, in terms of expansion? Was that ever a challenge and how did you go about? Yeah, I think it’s, uh, it’s always [00:47:15] a

[00:47:15] Niko: challenge. One thing you, you find with. Startups that your initial, uh, you know, uh, customer acquisitions are usually very different than the eventuals are.

[00:47:27] Niko: Yeah. Um, so, so for us, our, our, [00:47:30] our largest channel’s bobw. co. Um, which, but, you know, when you started initially, you’re like, okay, well let’s find tourists and consumers. Um, and then eventually you’re like, okay, let’s find B2B. Yeah. Um. And then of [00:47:45] course, as the brand matures, you want to try to find them directly to, to, to your site and what have you.

[00:47:51] Niko: And, uh, we have the highest net promoter scores in Europe. Then if you have the highest net promoter scores, you should probably put those net promoters to good use. [00:48:00] Um, uh, for, for us, uh, we’ve always seen the OTA channels, OTA being online travel agencies, booking. com, Expedia, Airbnbs of the world as a fabulous Low [00:48:15] cost customer acquisition channel that for us, success is we find them there.

[00:48:20] Niko: We pay the 15 percent commission, which is a lot cheaper than most B2B sauce, uh, acquisitions. And for us, failure is if they next [00:48:30] time book with, uh, But instead get them directly and we make money on the first, uh, you know, first, uh, customer the first time as well. So we’ve really used that as a, we embrace it.

[00:48:43] Niko: Generally speaking, hotels hate them. [00:48:45] Uh, we think it’s a great partner to be having again, as long as we’re able to then, uh, you know, for that, uh, for the, for that relevant chunk, who is going to have the potential of coming back. Yeah.

[00:48:57] Josua: Yeah.

[00:48:57] Niko: To actually get those directly. [00:49:00] Uh, then we built a loyalty program.

[00:49:01] Niko: We’ve built this whole, um, you know, programs around retaining customers. Um, And, uh, and that’s a weird just about too long. Actually, we’ve soft launch it already. So I think by the [00:49:15] time this podcast is going to go out, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a, or already, already in the news is a brand new loyalty program, which is super exciting, super pragmatic, super.

[00:49:24] Niko: Uh, understandable what you’re getting, um, which is a media

[00:49:29] Josua: benefits. [00:49:30] Some, some things, uh, something that loyalty programs are not known for, at least in my view. Yeah. Yeah. You don’t have

[00:49:36] Niko: to be scared of collecting some random points with us. Um, and, and you benefit right away from it. Uh, then we’ve obviously, uh, aside from.[00:49:45]

[00:49:45] Niko: Inner Circle, our loyalty program. We’ve built the B to B program, which is something that we can legitimately satisfy the modern next generation companies, you know, including the startup scale ups, tech companies, creative [00:50:00] industries, uh, give a better product and then it’s on the market and more flexible ones.

[00:50:04] Niko: So you can get the executive there for the one night or relocation. Uh, guy for six weeks with his family and needs three bedrooms or the project worker coming in for three [00:50:15] weeks. We can get, capture all of that, which is not something that a hotel can do or if you do it with random apartments, it’s going to be a lot of work and validation and all that and not the same value for money.

[00:50:25] Niko: So, so, We’ve slowly built these different aspects [00:50:30] to it, which is, uh, you know, really that OTA strategy, the B2B strategy, and then direct, direct strategies, and, you know, you’re never going to win upfront the, the. Uh, sort of [00:50:45] search engine game, a search engine marketing game to the booking. com’s of the world, which are literally the world’s largest spender on, on Google.

[00:50:53] Niko: Yeah, yeah. You know, you just, there’s not enough cash to get around that. So, you, you have to look at [00:51:00] different avenues. And, uh, um, and, and for us, for us, uh, Our biggest asset is the customers who are absolutely in love with us. And, uh, and, and you will be too when you stay with us. So we, that’s, that’s what we’re betting on and continuing on.[00:51:15]

[00:51:15] Josua: That’s, uh, that’s so interesting. I think it’s, uh, I mean, as you mentioned, if you’re able to be profitable on the first, first order using the OTAs and then with the. Incredible customer experience. You get the direct relationship built and that retention. Um, then you [00:51:30] have, like, this incredibly powerful acquisition engine.

[00:51:35] Josua: One thing I think is always so fascinating. I mean, Bob is now six years old, six years old. Um, so obviously, uh, the company has [00:51:45] changed massively your, you’ve been the CEO since the start, your role has changed massively as the organization grows, um, your, your responsibilities, but also like what it requires of you as a CEO to continue leading the company changes massively.

[00:51:58] Josua: And I’ve seen recently you’re, [00:52:00] you’re building out your executive team, um, making lots of, lots of senior key hires. You know, that’s obviously something that we weren’t doing in the beginning. So how do you, on a personal level, make sure that you always have, you don’t become the [00:52:15] bottleneck in limiting the potential and growth of Bob?

[00:52:21] Josua: Well, I

[00:52:21] Niko: try to stay out of the way. That’s rule number one, but, uh, um, no, but I think the, the thing when it comes [00:52:30] to This whole startup game and, and getting into starting a company that you’re hoping to grow fast and, and go places is, is to recognize your strengths, but more [00:52:45] importantly, recognize your weaknesses.

[00:52:47] Niko: And, uh, uh, as I said earlier, I think there’s, you know, I have a few key strengths, but those are complimented with a plethora of weaknesses. Um, and. That [00:53:00] goes back to this why a co founder is so important to hire and again that polarity of skill sets that, you know, different capabilities. Basically somebody loved doing the shit you hate doing and vice versa.

[00:53:12] Niko: Um, and, and [00:53:15] that, you know, As, as you grow, it’s, that’s why it’s so important to pick not just the right, uh, you know, technical skillsets, but also again, those different, you know, you’ve got the organizer, you’ve got the hustler [00:53:30] project manager, you’ve got the idea person, you’ve got the executor, you’ve got the realist, you’ve got the pessimist, you’ve got the optimist.

[00:53:39] Niko: And getting that mix right is extremely important to build the right kind of team, because again, [00:53:45] I’ve got those weaknesses. You know, I spent the first 30 years of my life trying to be a generalist. As in Raising the weaknesses. Why the heck would I like? And of course that was, that had value, but I think, you know, [00:54:00] to embrace that, okay, I’m really good at that stuff.

[00:54:02] Niko: I’m shite at that stuff is actually really empowering because then you migrate towards the things that you’re good at and you find the right kind of team and you build the team around for the stuff that you’ve got weaknesses in. And I think that’s [00:54:15] the, That’s the really important piece that over the years is again upskilling the team, getting the right kind of people who will help unlock, uh, you know, and fix the problems of your next biggest challenges, [00:54:30] understanding that, you know, you’re not going to be the answer to all of those and being able to having the guts to give up as part of that turf to people that are way more capable than you are.

[00:54:43] Niko: And, uh, And for me, for [00:54:45] example, like from a management style perspective, like I’m not a method manager, like you give me somebody who requires a lot of work and you know, like not micromanaging, but sort of really hands on managing and [00:55:00] helping out, like I, I do not have that, uh, organizational skills to systematically do an eight point improvement plan on somebody to really come out and turn them into gems.

[00:55:12] Niko: I need to surround myself with [00:55:15] people who, you know, We give the resources to, uh, we build the trust together and support, but they’re the ones which are the engines of growth and development in their own areas of capabilities and responsibilities. So to understand [00:55:30] that, then you build around it. It’s like, okay, you know, I’m, I’m not a great organizer, so let’s get an amazing organizer who can, you know, and it’s not just about organizing, but can help operate that business so that you know, you find these kind of like different capabilities, [00:55:45] and I think that’s when really the magic happens, because first of all, then you’ve got people that are amazing at what they do.

[00:55:52] Niko: They’ve got their clear turf, which they’re, they’re, they’re owning and mastering, but at the same time, there’s respect for others because you’ve [00:56:00] got the like, wow, that guy’s so good with finance and strategy and et cetera. And So, uh, uh, we, we, we hired, uh, we just hired a, um, uh, chief commercial officer that came from Yotel, which is one of the, uh, [00:56:15] industries sort of leading, leading, uh, uh, players and very forward looking hotel chain.

[00:56:20] Niko: Um, uh, so, so, you know, to really help us unlock the next step in growth and strategies and expanding our demand side of the [00:56:30] business. Yeah. Yeah. Um, And then we also hired a chief financial officer, uh, who is, like, 25 years of industry experience, was in the biggest hotel chains first, and then, then in, [00:56:45] uh, really forward looking, uh, you know, uh, hospitality operators, like, uh, he was in CFO of, uh, Generator, which was the, Hostile hostile company that that was on the forefront of that and really the pioneers and, [00:57:00] you know, um, in the hostile space.

[00:57:04] Niko: So point being is like again, it’s and it’s that goes to finally that cliche of hiring people that are smarter than you and better than you. And I think that’s the, you know, [00:57:15] uh, so I shouldn’t in the development of, like you said, CEO’s position. I don’t really deserve much. Credit, uh, it’s, it’s the only credit is, is having the guts to hire people that are smarter and [00:57:30] you’re more capable than you and making sure you do that investment.

[00:57:32] Niko: And I, I, I would like to think that that’s really brought dividends for us, not actual dividends yet. And, uh, and

[00:57:40] Josua: we’ll continue doing forward. Yeah, I think that’s such a great answer. And it, I [00:57:45] guess that is one of the reasons why when you look statistically, Second time founders or third time founders tend to be the one like the second or third startup tends to be the one that really succeeds.

[00:57:54] Josua: And I guess one reason being that from the first startup, you have the awareness of your own [00:58:00] weaknesses, um, and then you also maybe have some of the connections to people, um, that that can fill those weaknesses. And if you have the lack of ego that will allow you to bring in smarter people and give them their turf, then you can build this incredible team.

[00:58:14] Josua: [00:58:15] Yeah. And I think

[00:58:16] Niko: that I think that’s a great point and and like what one of the things that I’m most proud of us as a company that we’ve managed to create. a work [00:58:30] environment, uh, that’s just, you know, we spend so, which is just great because we spend so much time with our colleagues, et cetera. We have this unofficial mantra, which is pretty close to official, which is life’s too short to work with assholes.

[00:58:43] Niko: And, uh, we [00:58:45] use it both internally, externally, partners, landlords. We always go through that, uh, asshole orometer of, of, is these people nice to work with? So we, I think we have a very low ego. [00:59:00] environment and that translates into a very, very nice place to be at. And I, I think that, uh, uh, you know, that’s probably also given increased that ability to take, get amazing people on board and keep them.

[00:59:14] Niko: Uh, [00:59:15] so we have a very, very, very low churn. Uh, in our teams and a very high ENPS score, uh, in the company. Of course, that changes at times and there’s certainly been tough times as well that affected that. But overall, uh, it really feels like we’re in this [00:59:30] as a team. Uh, which is important, especially as a CEO role sometimes feels very lonely.

[00:59:35] Josua: Yeah, I can imagine. Um, Nico. Thank you so much for coming on. We have to, unfortunately, wrap up. We could talk about this, uh, or I could continue for a [00:59:45] really long time. But, uh, we’ll have to do another follow up episode when you’re at the next level of, uh, of, of scale. Sure thing. So, I mean, you’ve, you’ve raised 40 million earlier this year.

[00:59:56] Josua: Um, you’re doing high tens of million revenue doubling. It’s pretty, pretty [01:00:00] crazy. You’ve got this How are profitable? And you’re profitable. And as you mentioned, based on public ratings, uh, the number one ranked. So, uh, safe to say, You’re doing incredible, like Bob W is, uh, is, is doing incredibly well. And, you know, it’s been, you know, a lot, many, [01:00:15] many, many years in the making.

[01:00:16] Josua: Lots of stress, I can imagine, and uncertainty, and late nights, and low salaries, and all that. So, congratulations. Thank you. Um, to you and the whole team. And, uh, it’s, I think it’s just really incredibly exciting to see a Finnish [01:00:30] slash German startup like this succeeding. And, um, I think I saw an article, I didn’t read it, but the headline, I think it was in, uh, Hoas.

[01:00:38] Josua: Yeah. Uh, said something about, like, I want to build a brand. Like, about, about you, uh, wanting to build a brand that could beat the Swedes or [01:00:45] something. And, uh, I think that’s, that’s, that’s really encouraging that we, that we see that in Finland. People who want to build, like, think very ambitiously. I mean, obviously it’s not just about beating Sweden.

[01:00:55] Josua: You mentioned like wanting to be pan European. Like, I think that’s so incredibly [01:01:00] exciting. So, um, wish you guys all the best of luck and, uh, yeah, let’s do a follow up episode sometime. Let’s do that.

[01:01:08] Niko: For the record, I love, I love my, my, our Swedish cousins. Uh, I got nothing against it. The journalists [01:01:15] really picked up a spot.

[01:01:16] Niko: And, uh, which is, we do have that little brother syndrome, it’s Finns with the Swedes. And, and I think we’ve got, um, so it was me growing up in high school in London with a bunch of very, very stylish Swedish chaps. So, [01:01:30] uh, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus. Plus the country brand behind him. I was always like, well, Finland deserves an equally good country.

[01:01:35] Niko: Of course, unique and not the same, but. And, uh, so, so yeah, so much love for them. And I, I would say, you know, it’s an, it’s [01:01:45] an exciting time to, to be, to be in hospitality. And thank you for the wishes. Um, uh, I hope it’s going to go fine. As my old boss used to say at NetJets, who was, uh, uh, running, running the marketing and sales team, that [01:02:00] Nico, it’s going to go fine as long as you don’t fuck it up.

[01:02:05] Josua: That’s a good note to end things on. So, yeah, thank you so much for coming on and best of luck. Thanks for having me, Joshua.

[01:02:12] Intro: Thank you for listening. You can find all [01:02:15] episodes of The Growth Pod on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts.