3 takeaways from the conversation with Sanna Suvanto-Harsaae

Self-Leadership is the Foundation

Sanna emphasized that effective leadership starts with leading yourself. Without self-discipline, clear priorities, and personal accountability, it’s impossible to inspire and lead others. Self-leadership involves taking full ownership of your responsibilities and actions, even when tasks are delegated from higher up.

Her advice is simple yet powerful: when assigned a project, don’t merely treat it as a handoff from your boss—own it. Understand its purpose, adapt it to make it meaningful, and communicate it to your team as your vision. This approach fosters credibility and motivation, transforming “just another task” into a shared mission.

Focus is the Ultimate Leadership Superpower

One of the most striking parts of our discussion was Sanna’s view on focus. She described it as the hallmark of effective leaders and high-performing teams. Instead of trying to juggle dozens of priorities, the best leaders identify a few key objectives and give them their full attention.

To make this practical, Sanna shared her approach to “parking” secondary tasks. Rather than killing ideas outright, she advises creating a visible “parking lot” for them. This strategy allows teams to focus on their core goals without losing sight of other ideas that may become relevant later. As Sanna put it, most items in the parking lot tend to fade away over time, freeing energy for what truly matters.

Fun Builds Trust and Team Performance

It might sound counterintuitive, but Sanna highlighted the importance of fun as a serious leadership tool. In her experience, humor and lightheartedness are indicators of trust within teams. When people feel safe enough to laugh and be themselves, it signals a culture of openness and collaboration.

Sanna explained that humor isn’t about being a clown or forcing positivity—it’s about authenticity. Leaders who can balance seriousness with a sense of humor are often more relatable and inspiring, making it easier for their teams to follow them. Fun is not just a nice-to-have; it’s a sign of psychological safety, which is critical for high-performing teams.

Watch the episode:

Podcast transcript

E56 Sanna Suvanto-Harsaae

[00:00:28] Josua: Sanna, thank you so much for coming [00:00:30] on the show. You are the first repeat guest. So we recorded an episode, I think it was almost a year ago.

[00:00:36] Josua: And it’s been one of the most popular episodes, and it was one that I really appreciated. And then we spoke, it was online. You were in Denmark. I was in [00:00:45] Finland. And we spoke, we covered a lot of ground, but I think mostly from the perspective of boards.

[00:00:50] Sanna: Yes.

[00:00:50] Josua: So now, today, I was hoping we could take it a notch down, talk about executive teams, CEOs and why they fail how they succeed.

[00:00:58] Josua: Which is something that you have a lot of [00:01:00] experience with. You recently spoke at a Nordic Business Forum. Yes. The big event here in Finland. And I think your title for the keynote was why and how CEOs and executive teams succeed. And I wasn’t there, unfortunately, but I’ve seen some [00:01:15] summaries on online.

[00:01:15] Josua: I was like, that’s the things you listed were super interesting, super concrete. So I was hoping we could go through them one by one. I think there’s six. The first one that you mentioned was self leadership. Yeah. So what does that mean to you [00:01:30] and why is it so important?

[00:01:32] Sanna: I think, I had this indeed in the NBF.

[00:01:35] Sanna: I had three essentials and then three F factors. We’ll come with those one later. Their self leadership for me is the crew and base of that one. And sometimes [00:01:45] people think that leading is about leading others or leading something or leading whatever, but you can’t lead anything if you don’t lead yourself.

[00:01:53] Sanna: And the fact is that you have to actually have to teach people how to lead yourself. Some people [00:02:00] learn it in a very young age, if you are a sports person or if you do music seriously, whatever, which means you learn that I have to lead myself to do the training to get to somewhere. But most of us don’t really learn it that hardcore.

[00:02:14] Sanna: So you have [00:02:15] to first of all be very careful. Mindful about the fact that it’s about me leading. Let me give you another example. If you get a job from your boss and this is your project, do that one. And then you go to your team and saying, Oh, we got this job from my boss or this is the stuff we have [00:02:30] to do.

[00:02:31] Sanna: Then you don’t get people to go with you. Which is one of the other parts of leadership. You have to first, if you get this, whatever it is, a project, you have to first look at it yourself, as you would leading it yourself, saying, let’s stop. I’m leading now myself. I’m [00:02:45] looking what I got. I might go back to my boss and say, I want to do a slight modification.

[00:02:50] Sanna: I might need to talk to some colleagues and do a modification. That’s all about you taking self leadership position versus that project. And very many people just say, [00:03:00] but this was a giving tasks. I’m going to run this task, stopping, thinking, evaluating. is in the business world, the first part of leadership and then deciding what to do, not to do.

[00:03:11] Sanna: Because if you go to your people who are going to work with and [00:03:15] we’ve got this task and saying, Oh, we got this task. Let’s do this. People are going to say, this is very interesting. But if you have thought about this, what’s the real, why are we doing this? Then the whole project becomes interesting.

[00:03:26] Sanna: You get believability because people can see, Oh, it’s your [00:03:30] project. It’s not task from somewhere else. And also self leadership. If just take out of business world, it’s all about learning to say yes to something and no to something. It’s taking responsibility. It’s admitting there is [00:03:45] only one responsible person of your life.

[00:03:47] Sanna: And that’s yourself. Unfortunately, we are not all taught through that. And that’s why my point on there was very much about that. The good CEOs, good leadership teams, not only are they [00:04:00] themselves doing self leadership, but they are actually teaching and learning and training their organizations to be a self leaders.

[00:04:09] Sanna: And there’s a lot of room for that one, but that’s why everything starts with self leadership. You need a [00:04:15] team of people who are First of all, leading themselves and then playing as a team, it’s like a football or any game sport where everybody has their position, but you’re also together. So that’s why lead shelf leadership.

[00:04:26] Sanna: I’ve never seen a leader succeed if they are [00:04:30] not good of self leadership. It’s very evident. They don’t even think about it. It’s so natural for them, but it really needs to start about. The responsibility is mine. I’m the responsible. I’m leading myself. I’m leading my projects, and then I’m leading [00:04:45] others.

[00:04:45] Sanna: If that is part of the whole project, for example.

[00:04:47] Josua: Got it. You said natural. So that, leads me to think, is there something that is innate or maybe something that’s formed early in childhood, maybe through sports or so? Or is it something that you can actually really teach it at scale to your team?

[00:04:59] Sanna: [00:05:00] Oh, let’s make leadership is actually I gave a leadership course very many years ago in the company I was working. And I said that leadership cannot be actually taught in that sense, but it can be learned.

[00:05:10] Josua: I see. Okay,

[00:05:10] Sanna: So you can make put people in situations. You’re right. Some people [00:05:15] if you are in the organizations, if you’re in the scouts, if you’re in sports, you unknowingly get to maybe train the leadership skills when you’re younger.

[00:05:23] Sanna: But then it’s nothing that everybody can. Everybody can learn it. Some of us just have [00:05:30] been training it longer period than others. But it is for the organization. And I can see to a very kind of basic levels in the organization. You can spread this idea of self leadership. And you can see when people realize that it’s [00:05:45] my it’s up to me.

[00:05:46] Sanna: I don’t have to ask others How powerful that becomes on all levels of organization.

[00:05:51] Josua: Yeah, I hadn’t heard that before, but I really like it that it can’t be learned. It can’t be taught, but it can’t be learned. Yes. Very good. One thing that you mentioned, I thought it was really interesting [00:06:00] is, was the aspect of taking ownership as specifically as in trying to understand the task you’ve been given and I’m guessing that’s like a crucial.

[00:06:09] Josua: Plays a really crucial role in, in then being able to commit it to communicate it to the team and get them a board like you need to [00:06:15] actually have thought about it. You need to own it. You can’t just be like this is what my boss told us to do, and we have to do this because the quarterly numbers are bad.

[00:06:22] Josua: You have to actually take some responsibility. Correct?

[00:06:25] Sanna: Absolutely. And you’re so right, because we as humans, we hear not [00:06:30] what the task is or what the project is. What we do here is all about How do you as a team leader want us to get into this one? And if you really want to get into the team leadership in in, in that sense, then if you [00:06:45] own the project, if you really own the project then people can feel it.

[00:06:49] Sanna: It’s it’s Oh, it’s your project. It’s really important for you. And then you can tell if it’s important for me. This is why I think it’s important for you. And then you get the whole team going. But it’s [00:07:00] very crucial that you in terms of leadership have the understanding of leadership of projects of tasks.

[00:07:06] Sanna: It’s only if you are yourself convinced. And also you’re wasting your time. If you get a task from your boss and you just think, I’m going to do it and just blindly go that way, [00:07:15] you’re wasting your time. Because you just didn’t, you are not engaged. So you have to first think about, and that this think, stop, think, Evaluate and then go.

[00:07:26] Sanna: We’re running too quickly into just action. We need to [00:07:30] actually stop and take the responsibility, do a little change of that project and then doing a lot of little change when you get others and then run with it. That’s the whole thing about it.

[00:07:39] Josua: I think so few people, too few people realize that actually to push back in a certain [00:07:45] way is a really key part of being a subordinate, like being a good subordinate is not taking everything your boss says and be like, you’re God, everything.

[00:07:52] Josua: I’m gonna run with it. And the boss appreciates a good boss will appreciate getting the feedback because the subordinates have so much technical specific [00:08:00] knowledge that the boss doesn’t have. So it’s Yeah, that it’s a, it’s definitely like a two way street.

[00:08:04] Sanna: There’s one other part of leadership, which we, which otherwise we’ll talk the rest of the time of that one, but it’s about leading a management.

[00:08:10] Sanna: People are saying, Oh, you’re just pleasing a management. No. It’s about leading a management. And I talk [00:08:15] sometimes of number eight. Which is it’s with, in all the organization, it goes back and forth. And if you get a task, and if you think about it, and you say, okay I got this task, I need to, A, I need to clarify some points.

[00:08:24] Sanna: So you go back to your boss, and then saying I alert this once, but let me clarify a couple of things. The [00:08:30] boss will actually really appreciate it, because it shows that you have actually seen, you’ve read it, and you just want to come and double check. Great. And the second thing you can do, I thought about this one and I found a couple of other ways of doing it and I would just like to play them back to you before I rush on.

[00:08:44] Sanna: [00:08:45] And if you go to their boss and say, you’re an idiot, this is too big project, then of course you’re going to fail. But you can, you have to always think about managing upwards. I say it’s like selling upwards. It’s Getting to do what you want. I myself, early in my career, I got a project which was really ridiculous.

[00:08:59] Sanna: [00:09:00] And then I turned around and it came something totally different. And my boss was like, oh that’s even better, great, run with it. And I managed to turn a really boring project a couple of times in my very young career. Because I didn’t want to do a boring project. I hate doing some boring projects.

[00:09:14] Sanna: So I needed to [00:09:15] find some oomph and some interesting on that one, and then go and clarify my boss that this is the task initially, but this is what I thought of it. Here’s some analysis, early analysis, and I’m going to go with that. And they’re like, brilliant, go! And then the energy comes to the projects.[00:09:30]

[00:09:30] Sanna: Then you get all in about it. So it’s all about, managing your management, I call it. And that is actually some of the things that I see very senior managers failing,

[00:09:39] Josua: that

[00:09:40] Sanna: they are not very good of understanding that then they come like argumentative. Yeah, but you [00:09:45] want to do this. I want to do that.

[00:09:46] Josua: Yes,

[00:09:46] Sanna: no, it’s not about it’s about if I managed to sell to my boss what I want to do.

[00:09:50] Josua: Yes,

[00:09:50] Sanna: then I can do whatever I want.

[00:09:52] Josua: Yeah, the benefits and the benefits like short term in giving like having freedom and being able to do the kind of work that you want to do, but also long term [00:10:00] for career.

[00:10:00] Josua: It’s huge, but I think people don’t. Certainly it’s not a skill that’s being taught. I don’t know, at least in my experience.

[00:10:07] Sanna: That’s exactly, where would you learn this skill? That’s why I say some people learn it coincidentally when they do it working. But this is [00:10:15] why the first place you can nearly, honestly, my first job was a great place because that was a, How’s that really a company really build on leadership?

[00:10:24] Josua: Yeah,

[00:10:24] Sanna: so you kept training you had some leadership skills when you entered and you kept really learning this leadership [00:10:30] skills And actually it is, you know in the job. That’s why you can’t teach it. That’s what universities can do some theoretical things Yes But you have to be in a place when you can learn it.

[00:10:40] Sanna: And it’s only when you work, when you start to, that’s the place you can train it. That’s your [00:10:45] training field. So the companies just, the companies, the management teams have to take this very seriously and saying, so how do I, it doesn’t have to be called self leadership, but how do I. Self responsibility.

[00:10:56] Sanna: How do I ensure all these things happening? And [00:11:00] because I’m the first instance that can learn the people on this one and you can learn, you learn hold your life.

[00:11:06] Josua: It’s never too late. Okay. That was a good one. We could definitely, you could spend the whole podcast talking about leadership, but I think you made a good case for why [00:11:15] that needs to be the starting point.

[00:11:16] Sanna: Yes.

[00:11:16] Josua: Second one was result orientation.

[00:11:19] Sanna: Yes, I think that specifically when you talk leadership, there is too much. Wobbly, wobbly, blah, blah. I think we have to admit that and I get very unpopular when I say business of [00:11:30] business is business.

[00:11:30] Sanna: But you have to understand that in order to do all the great things, you have to have a company that makes results.

[00:11:36] Sanna: And there’s several reasons why that is important. But one of the reasons is we are all humans. We won’t be part of the winning team. So in order to attract the best people, you [00:11:45] better make results. In order to be able to invest the people, invest in the future, invest in ESG, sustainability is a huge investment.

[00:11:53] Sanna: So in order for you to be a good company and do these investments, you need to make money. And somehow, at this current environment, [00:12:00] making money and, being money business result focus is Bad word. But we have to at least to admit that in order to do all the good things, whether it’s for your employees or for the environment, which is hugely important, you have to make some money.

[00:12:14] Sanna: [00:12:15] So you have to make some results. The second thing for me, this one is I always ensure that you measure the results because if your results on how do you make the results only, it’s not like near a face correlation. But if you’re saying, Listen, these are the end [00:12:30] results I want to get, then you’re measuring people on how do they progress to the results.

[00:12:35] Sanna: So result orientation is for me key factor of a successful management. Because in the end, if the management is nice, and they are very kind, [00:12:45] and they vary all these kind of things, but they don’t make the results, you can end up have to remove those people. And actually you’re letting down your people if you don’t make results.

[00:12:53] Sanna: So I’m not saying you have to always, that’s the only goal. But we have to remember that results. [00:13:00] And they matter for the company’s development.

[00:13:02] Josua: Absolutely. And I think you mentioned like how it’s a bad word and we pass moral judgment on it. But when you think about it, a company that’s more profitable, it’s not more greedy.

[00:13:11] Josua: No. It’s actually more efficient. It can provide more [00:13:15] value to customers in comparison to the cost it takes to create that value. And Apple isn’t more greedy now than it was 20 years ago, but it’s a lot more efficient. It’s a lot more profitable, so it’s not a bad thing for, as a country in Finland, we need, we would love to see more companies be much more profitable because it speaks to.[00:13:30]

[00:13:30] Josua: It speaks to like we’re actually producing a higher more refined

[00:13:33] Sanna: R and D product development is, if you are in trouble, company in trouble, you don’t have time and energy and investment money to put on R and D and R and D is one of the things we talk about Finland, which Finland is really lousy [00:13:45] on.

[00:13:46] Sanna: And so the whole thing of what you need the money for, this understanding that you could do things without money results in that sense is lousy. But I think it’s on the sustainability is one of the places where it really hits the fact that it is [00:14:00] you have to understand that in sustainability is all about able to make horrendously big investments on a better way of doing things.

[00:14:08] Sanna: And if you do not make better results, you don’t have money to make that investments.

[00:14:13] Josua: Okay. Or [00:14:15] results matter both because it allows for a lot of investment it obviously without results, eventually bankruptcy is the, or some version of that, but also can you speak to the, you mentioned a little bit but the motivation that it creates in the team, like if I were to push back, I’d say people [00:14:30] don’t care about EBITDA, they don’t care about whether this huge mega corp that they’re working for is, if their quarterly earnings are up or down so how do you then Connect

[00:14:39] Sanna: you cascaded.

[00:14:40] Sanna: I’ve worked with a company, which it was really funny because I was the [00:14:45] head of the Northern Europe and by looking at my result numbers, by the way, I believe that more than five and then you have a jungle. So you only have to five and all have to miserable measurable. Not all has to be financial, but have to be measurable.

[00:14:58] Sanna: So employee pay. [00:15:00] Engagement your sustainability goals. So it’s just about for me, results is measurable numbers. It’s not just financial numbers, but it’s about cascading. Assume that you’re part of the big corporate and I used to work on the fast moving consumer goods. You maybe are just [00:15:15] the brand manager off.

[00:15:17] Sanna: Let’s say my first product, Fairy Liquid in Finland. Then, of course, you have to be measured on Your results on Finland. If you’re measured on the American companies quarterly reports in U. S. [00:15:30] No use. So you have to have a cascade system. So the results have to be something that you can achieve. It can’t be big results, which are five levels above.

[00:15:39] Sanna: You can, of course, have part of that one in order to say that this is for what we all do specifically in the smaller [00:15:45] companies. But most of the results have to be measurable. Numeric. And don’t tell me that people things can’t be measured. They can measured very much of numbers have been numeric measurable.

[00:15:56] Sanna: And again, if you take the connection to the self leadership, you have to be [00:16:00] numbers that you can be responsible off. So it requires some work from the managers to not just put my goals to you, but actually saying, Okay, so if I have certain goals, What’s the next level cascading those results, which you are responsible, most of them.[00:16:15]

[00:16:15] Josua: Got it. That leads me to think about for instance, OKRs objectives and key results. Is that something like, would that be one way of achieving that?

[00:16:23] Sanna: Absolutely. I love, I’m a big believer in OKRs, not KPI, OKRs specifically. And, but that is, again, there is the R [00:16:30] results, there is the number.

[00:16:31] Sanna: And I’ve said, and I’ve said to specifically, I’ll say this specifically for female employees, I always say, go and work sales. Because you want to be measured in numbers, you want to show that I’m doing. What I should be doing, and I want to have a number result, and I’m saying to also [00:16:45] people that, if you don’t have number results back on the first point, go back to your boss and saying, listen, next time we have this, whatever review, if I have some bonus or some, that kind of things, I would like to be measured on three, three, three, these three things, the boss is going to clap his hands because you’ve done [00:17:00] his or her work and actually, then you get measured on numbers and numbers don’t lie.

[00:17:05] Sanna: They are what they are.

[00:17:06] Josua: It’s it’s so basic, but it’s not basic, but it’s like fundamental, but it’s so uncommon. I find I was talking to a friend a couple of weeks ago and we’re talking about, he works at a big company [00:17:15] and talking about bonuses and the majority of bonuses, it was made up of maybe five.

[00:17:19] Josua: So not too many, something like that met metrics. And I was like, how many of those can influence? I don’t forget what he said, but it’s like the majority of the bonuses is completely out of his hands. [00:17:30] Absolutely. I was like, wow, that’s that makes a bonus completely worthless in my point of view as an incentive tool.

[00:17:34] Sanna: And also it’s different if it’s a long term bonus because it’s a short term and long term. So I’m talking about yearly bonus. Then it really has to be measurable. Something most of you, you can make an effort. Not all of it, [00:17:45] because there is some teams or there’s some, there has to be a goals, which also requires collaboration.

[00:17:50] Sanna: But in terms of really measuring the numbers it’s still a number game. Then you have a long term. Very often a long term goal, specifically if you’re listed company [00:18:00] are together with the owners. So it’s a long term value. So that can be very difficult to say, How the hell do I do a long term value this month?

[00:18:06] Sanna: Then again, that’s the management job to be able to tell you that this is, you have some really difficult understanding numbers on, on, on the longterm [00:18:15] things. And, how is an earnings per share? What am I going to do to earnings per share? Then you need to have some kind of, culture where those who are measured on that level had understanding how my daily work is actually adding to that one and then usually link us in the short term.

[00:18:29] Sanna: So long [00:18:30] term goals, sometimes it is more difficult to make very tangible, but for if you have a short term bonuses, then you definitely should have maturity of them based on something you do.

[00:18:40] Josua: Okay. I want to double tap on two quick things. One with OKRs, and [00:18:45] you’re on the board and been on the board of very big companies for instance, in terms of headcount.

[00:18:50] Josua: So is that something that you think is realistic and that you want to see in your companies is having that kind of cascade from the top all the way to the organization and everyone has objective [00:19:00] measurable results that they’re performing against?

[00:19:02] Sanna: Let me put it this way. Very few companies get to do that.

[00:19:06] Sanna: I’m actually very afraid that still very many companies are lousy and lazy and they do KPIs because the OKRs [00:19:15] requires thinking you through objectives and K results. And so it is much more that process. But do I believe it happening? Yes. Have I seen it happening? Yes. And it’s more of a set of work.

[00:19:24] Sanna: I always say that it’s a tone from the top and if you do it for three levels, then it starts to more [00:19:30] automatically cascade downwards. Even

[00:19:31] Josua: got it. Yeah. Okay. And the second thing, cause I’m, when I think about results, my mind immediately goes to like bonuses and incentives and feel like they’re very interconnected.

[00:19:40] Josua: And I’m personally like very afraid of bonus systems cause they tend to, in my opinion they [00:19:45] just get too big. And there’s a chance that they’re like even producing like counter effect, like the opposite results. And so what do you think about for instance, just introducing like a shadow or phantom equity where employees are, of course, like equity, [00:20:00] direct equity is one thing.

[00:20:01] Josua: Let’s say a startup, let’s say you have family run business. You’re not interested in, um, sharing the ownership. So what do you think about, for instance, shadow equity, which essentially gives you. All the incentives as an owner, [00:20:15]

[00:20:15] Sanna: let me put it this way. First of all, I’m a big.

[00:20:17] Sanna: I’m a big having seen, I’m in what I call a practitioner. I’ve seen a more than 25 boards. I have my own leadership positions in the companies. I have to say, I think bonuses work. You yourself actually said it because they could give a wrong type of [00:20:30] incentive. So that means basically bonuses work.

[00:20:33] Sanna: So it is all about putting the right goals. So just let me start from there. So it’s all about putting the right goals and having three or four, the company I’m talking about, we had three goals. We had the net sales, we had an EBITDA, [00:20:45] and then we had a net working capital, and the EBITDA was what I call off the cliff clause, which means if we didn’t do the minimum amount of that one, the whole bonus was zero.

[00:20:53] Sanna: It’s very radical. So if you didn’t do back on company’s results, what company needs to do in order to be able to invest in the [00:21:00] future, All your bonus was zero. So whatever you got in net revenue or whatever you got in net working capital, zero, because your APDA goal was dozen. So that for me is a very good consequence because then, some, the issue very often is that the bonus are not linked.

[00:21:13] Sanna: If the company doesn’t do results, [00:21:15] you still have a bonus one or bonus four, which you still get paid. No, you should have this kind of back on the result focus in that sense. If the minimum results are not achieved, you still get paid. Too bad, no bonus, because that’s the reality.

[00:21:28] Sanna: Then what you’re [00:21:30] talking about equity or shadow equity, which is more for me about the long term bonus. The issue with long term bonus is that, in general, is that it’s very invisible. And it’s only when it starts to roll in, after the first three years and you get the first payments, you say, holy shit, did I [00:21:45] ignore this for three years?

[00:21:46] Sanna: So the issue with that one is but I believe a shadow equity, whatever it is, but it has to be something that eventually you have to see it coming. So if it’s like something you push and that’s sometimes difficult if you have a company you want to exit and you push it like five, [00:22:00] six, seven, eight years ahead of your time question is there a value?

[00:22:04] Sanna: And sometimes I combine that kind of things with a clear exit bonus. If you are, if it’s a company you want to sell. I guess if your family company usually don’t want to sell and then you do the shadow [00:22:15] equity or whatever way your system you do it a three years and then it rolls and every three years you get something out of it based on whatever the goals are.

[00:22:21] Sanna: I know we could talk about later about this one offline maybe, but the whole thing is that if it’s then something you want to sell 567 years, I think sometimes [00:22:30] what I see very good is we’ve started to use that you have both that shadow equity, which is still. Sweet. And we’d still maybe not that big, but then you maybe even just put an exit clause on that one.

[00:22:41] Sanna: And, in, in the selling company situation, there’s so big costs that [00:22:45] exit bonus is actually going to disappear and everything, but then it gives you a tangible, you can see something ahead of you together with the self equity. But for me I believe definitely that bonuses do affect people’s behavior.

[00:22:56] Sanna: For sure. You said the same thing. So I’m thinking of that one, but you have to ensure [00:23:00] that they are the right ones and you have to ensure that they are in correlation to the company’s results

[00:23:05] Josua: needed. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s a great point then. And my, my fear has been how they’re misused.

[00:23:10] Sanna: Oh, I agree.

[00:23:11] Sanna: But then you can look at the boss saying, why did I give that bonus? Yeah. And I’ve [00:23:15] seen it and I’ve seen it in higher levels. It’s really stupid. Yeah. But you learn about it. And the, for me to having this kind of off the cliff result based, What I would call break.

[00:23:23] Josua: Yeah,

[00:23:24] Sanna: it’s really good.

[00:23:25] Sanna: Because if you have defined that as a company, and most of the people who are in [00:23:30] the bonus system have, and that could be something that’s for the whole company, because you can say, listen, if the company doesn’t make the result it should be making, we can’t afford to give bonus to anybody.

[00:23:38] Josua: Yeah.

[00:23:39] Sanna: So that can be one of these when the higher levels, or if you have a division or smaller entity, but

[00:23:44] Josua: anyway.

[00:23:44] Josua: Yeah, and [00:23:45] I think, to your point, this is it drives human behavior. So it really pays off to think very deeply about it. Absolutely. Absolutely. The

[00:23:52] Sanna: few measurable link to the company’s development needs, you get some really good KPIs, but you can go badly [00:24:00] wrong as well.

[00:24:00] Josua: For sure. It brings to mind Charlie Munger, who is the famous investor partner of Warren Buffett.

[00:24:06] Josua: He said something like that he’s been in like the top 10 percentile of understanding how important incentives are for human behavior, but not a year has gone by and he lived to be [00:24:15] almost a hundred. Not a year has gone by. Where he hasn’t been surprised over just how powerful they are.

[00:24:20] Sanna: Yes.

[00:24:20] Josua: They’re and yeah, Actually, I haven’t

[00:24:21] Sanna: heard that one, but I fully understand it.

[00:24:23] Sanna: And you sometimes think about if there’s a change, you just, what are people ridiculous? Why would they do this one? And then [00:24:30] you just think people, but that is, if you give the goals are determined what they do. So you have to be very mindful of those ones and ensure that they are there and companies interests are lined up as together, hand in hand.

[00:24:43] Josua: Okay. So I think [00:24:45] great answers. You made a really good case for result orientation. So that leaves us number three. These are the essentials.

[00:24:51] Sanna: Yes.

[00:24:51] Josua: So number three is continuous development.

[00:24:54] Sanna: Yeah. Listen people have, if you, if people, if a [00:25:00] person decides, I’m ready. I’m done as a person, I’m perfect, not perfect initially, but I’ve learned what I have to learn.

[00:25:08] Sanna: That kind of persons are not good for the organization. So I’m trying to say is what you have to remind yourself is even if you have a great [00:25:15] results or if you have a bad results, even better. So you have to keep developing the team. You have to develop yourself and your team. You have to always censure that if you have a leadership team or the key people in the company, if you don’t push them.

[00:25:29] Sanna: Motivate [00:25:30] them to learn something new. They will go backwards. They will stagnate. They will not. This is very simple. It’s a movement. You either go backwards or you go forwards. And some people are like, yeah, I’ve gone all these leadership course and I’ve been in Howard and I’ve been in this and that.[00:25:45]

[00:25:45] Sanna: And this is actually one of the big failures that people think. That they think that the only kind of learning is by going and doing that. Now, I think one of the best learnings I’ve done has been completely somewhere else. You’ve been in a, we actually were in this leadership course where we are, it’s a long story, but we’re not going to go in there [00:26:00] canoeing in middle of Denmark and have to dive down in the water.

[00:26:02] Sanna: It wasn’t this kind of survival course, but it has some parts of that one, but which has triggered you to understand much better about yourself. So and it could be a thing about, I love, I have a friend who took all the call center ladies which were [00:26:15] 55 plus to learn coding,

[00:26:16] Sanna: So it’s more about triggering yourself.

[00:26:19] Sanna: to keep this movement forward. I have a granddad who, when he was 80, invested to a complete new kitchen requirement, which basically needed a PhD. Now he’s an engineer, so it was okay. This, [00:26:30] it is oh, but this oven can do all kinds of things. He had an oven, whatever, 30 years ago, which still could do more than my current oven, because he was enthusiastic about learning about new things.

[00:26:39] Sanna: So you have to keep the organization and your team Moving forward with all [00:26:45] kind of things, there is a good thing about going to courses. There is something about going to your clients, just that you integrate the learning aspect on everything you do. Just that fact, going to clients, too few companies spend enough time with clients.

[00:26:58] Sanna: If your client would say, [00:27:00] Oh, can I come and spend one, one day with you just to see what happens with you? They would say, Oh, I’d love to. Thank you. How many do that? Board members, I have a great story. One of the boards I was, I wanted to really go to operation. So I went to the operations and I [00:27:15] spent two days in operation in different places.

[00:27:17] Sanna: The whole rumor came up and saying, you’re the first board member ever having asked that I’m like, hot. What? That I learned so much. I learned so much from the operations. What was good for my board work. So [00:27:30] learning for me is a mindset, and it’s something you have to put on the agenda because if you don’t put it on the agenda, it doesn’t happen.

[00:27:35] Sanna: Because you have, you can always fill your 24 7 with work and private life and whatever. So you have to continuously, knowingly develop your team [00:27:45] yourself and do it in a multiple way. Not just taking courses here and courses there, but ensuring these triggering points and nearly build it on your monthly calendar.

[00:27:56] Sanna: So you do this customer things or just [00:28:00] we’ve started to involve boards of having external speakers doing lunches and, all kinds of things that adds to you too. Learn something new.

[00:28:08] Josua: I so much. I want to double tap on one thing that you mentioned there with the courses. And I feel like I completely agree.

[00:28:14] Josua: I feel like that [00:28:15] would be, that’s a cop out a lazy way of saying Oh, we want to invest in our people. Go and do some course they want to do, but there’s so much that can be learned from From on the job, going, speaking to different people, speaking to customers, going down to the factory, if that’s, [00:28:30] if you’re in manufacturing, and I think those are the things that we should push for, because those That’s where you learn , what’s really actually applicable.

[00:28:38] Sanna: I fully agree on your

[00:28:38] Josua: job.

[00:28:39] Sanna: I fully agree. And it’s a combination. Sometimes you wanna have this, intellectual yeah. Motivation and that’s why you wanna get courses. [00:28:45] Great. Do that.

[00:28:45] Sanna: But then this one time where somebody sent me a course, I wanna go, this one, I said, that’s irrelevant for a job.

[00:28:50] Sanna: And they’re like, but I really wanna. Yeah, but that is truly relevant. I am going to pay you a huge amount of doing something, but you have to find something that’s relevant. So that’s also requiring not just [00:29:00] sending them. Oh, pick some courses been saying, listen, in your development plan, it looks like you could do better on whatever analysis.

[00:29:07] Sanna: You could learn more of a I. You could do whatever. So you have to relate. It doesn’t have to be that. Oh, do whatever you want. So it’s [00:29:15] this duality off learning in general level on then the fact that what’s really your needs because your needs and my needs will be different. So it’s this combination, but it is to put it on focus on and put it on calendar.

[00:29:28] Josua: Yes,

[00:29:29] Sanna: [00:29:30] and execute it. Because otherwise you’re you stagnate.

[00:29:33] Josua: Yeah, I think one thing this may be on a personal level for people, but I feel like people don’t Appreciate how important learning they don’t take a broad perspective of learning. So you look at something like why should I [00:29:45] go talk to that person?

[00:29:45] Josua: Why should I read that book? Why should I do that thing? I’m not gonna, I don’t need to know that, but it’s life is long, hopefully. And you’ll, you might need that in two years, which is a very short time. So having that kind of like broad view of oh, that’s interesting. I’ll go speak to that person.

[00:29:58] Josua: Maybe I won’t learn [00:30:00] 20 percent more productive. But it’s about like constantly searching for knowledge and inspiration. I feel like. Can you learn that perspective? Can you teach that perspective? Or does it need to be learned?

[00:30:12] Sanna: I’ll give you a tip. Whenever somebody says to [00:30:15] me, I really don’t want to do that.

[00:30:16] Sanna: Or I, that would be the last thing I do. Going to talk about something or going to work with some other places in the company or whatever. I tend to ensure that’s what happens. Because one thing is when you say this one, then you’re so much in your own comfort [00:30:30] zone. Yes, that is actually a learning for you just to do it now.

[00:30:34] Sanna: Now I don’t you know, I’m not saying everybody has to go and do whatever skydiving or whatever to fix their power. But some people that’s where you need to go to get you on comfort zone. But what? The [00:30:45] funny thing is this uncomfort thing is that if you do something that’s uncomfortable, not dangerous, but just uncomfortable, When you’ve done it, you realize you push the barrier and there are things we don’t like to do.

[00:30:56] Sanna: And actually sometimes that’s a very good trick what to do. And then if [00:31:00] you’re a good boss and you figure out how do you maybe not forced to do exactly that, but you can find something that’s about the same. And I’ll do that. And I think that is that is one way of pushing people to learn new things is to understand also what they don’t want to do.

[00:31:14] Josua: Got it. [00:31:15] And I’m guessing one of the, you alluded, you mentioned this, like one of the hardest thing probably about this is making time for it. Absolutely. If someone’s, let’s say someone’s listening, they’re a leader, they’re like, I’m swamped. There’s no way I can fit anything into more into my calendar.

[00:31:28] Josua: What are some practical ways that [00:31:30] you’ve seen people be able to apply this? Is it about. Having a day, half a day, a week, what’s the kind of cadence you to

[00:31:38] Sanna: my next points? And you I think unknowingly know it but we’ll cut to the focus part of that one. Yeah. But it is all about, that’s why I say put it in [00:31:45] calendar and sometimes putting it next week is difficult, but if you put something in front of, I get surprised sometimes.

[00:31:49] Sanna: You ask me to come to podcast and I was like, oh, grief, it’s on Tuesday. But I had promised it a long time ago. Sometimes the trick is to put it, yes. To put it on the calendar if it’s in the calendar. It’s going to be much [00:32:00] more difficult to skip if you, the first point is literally to put it on the calendar.

[00:32:04] Josua: Yes.

[00:32:04] Sanna: And if it’s on two months, then you put it on calendar in two months time. If it’s there, it’s going to force you to do it much more likely than you say, oh, one day I’ll do it. Or I’ll put it in my long ever [00:32:15] to do list to be done when it’s time. There is no such a thing. So you have to put it on the calendar.

[00:32:19] Sanna: You have to put it on a practice. And also you have to put it repeatedly in the calendar. So if you only do it once, that’s no time. So you have to do these learning things. If you are a [00:32:30] CEO, just ensure you do at least, if I’m talking to a big company CEO, at least four times a year, spend a whole half day with your key clients, at least four times a year, once per quarter, it’s not a lot.

[00:32:40] Josua: Yeah.

[00:32:41] Sanna: Or, even preferably do it twice per quarter or trying to do this one that you put in a [00:32:45] calendar and then you help you get that meeting. You put in the calendar, maybe it’s three times, three months from now. And then you’re going to say the week before, Oh my God. But just do it.

[00:32:53] Josua: Yeah. This goes back to self leadership. Absolutely. It’s your responsibility.

[00:32:57] Sanna: Absolutely.

[00:32:58] Josua: Do it. Okay. That was the [00:33:00] essential. Self leadership. Yes. Result orientation. And continuous development. That was beautiful. Then you had three Fs. Yes. Which were secret superpowers.

[00:33:08] Sanna: Correct.

[00:33:08] Josua: First one. Future orientation.

[00:33:11] Josua: Yes.

[00:33:12] Sanna: I find people [00:33:15] spending too much time analyzing. history without having the focus, it’s great to analyze history, but only in order if you have the mindset. So what am I going to do tomorrow differently? Because I’ve learned from that one. And just having that forward [00:33:30] orientation is it’s what’s going to lead.

[00:33:32] Sanna: Some people spend about, Oh, I made this mistake in school when I was 15. God, I luckily my memory is so bad. I can’t remember all of them. Otherwise I would be in Kind of really in bad shape. But it’s about saying what has happened. Just let’s move forward. Keep your [00:33:45] forward focus.

[00:33:45] Sanna: I specifically find it a very, it’s in all people and all nations, but Finland is specifically bad on that one. You want to, whose fault is it?

[00:33:52] Josua: Yeah.

[00:33:53] Sanna: The worst thing that there is in any company, if I hear that, I stop it immediately. I was like, what can we learn from this one? Even if it’s a [00:34:00] really terrible accident, and people have, got hurt on that one, I am all more interested about what do we learn from this?

[00:34:06] Sanna: Because finding whose fault it is not going to teach you anything. So you have to stay in the future of orientation. Let’s take a completely other example. Very many, and I’ll now [00:34:15] take a board example, very many board meetings, people are asking, why did your cross marching last month go down?

[00:34:20] Sanna: Is the most useless question. Same question asked in the right way, future orientation, I noticed your cross margin went down on last month. [00:34:30] What are your actions in order to get the cross margin back where it should be? You realize the difference on those questions? The one is set on the future forward orientation.

[00:34:39] Sanna: The other one is fault finding. And if the management asks the first one, they get defensive, and they can tell you [00:34:45] all the stories why it went. If they ask the same question by asking, so how do we ensure? They can still reflect on the old ones, but they are forced to. To tell what exactly are they going to do to change things.

[00:34:56] Sanna: So it’s all about staying in focus, staying in the [00:35:00] future. Let go of things. Also in the work, learn and let go. That’s what it’s all about. And it sounds, all these things I was talking are basic. And honestly, the best companies are the ones that do the basic. The best leaders are the ones

[00:35:12] Josua: that do

[00:35:12] Sanna: the basics continuously.

[00:35:14] Sanna: [00:35:15] Great. It’s not a rocket science to be a business leader. Bye. The fact of doing the right few things consequently, right all the time, is a very difficult thing. So the future orientation is one of these things. You look future, you learn from past, you [00:35:30] look future, and you don’t look past. Spoil your energy on something as useless as false finding or the person who made the mistake finding.

[00:35:38] Josua: I think that’s so great because I feel like when I see that, that word, my mind immediately goes to, okay, now we need to start thinking about this [00:35:45] huge mega trends. What does it mean? No, but you tied it back to actually, it’s just about our business, what we’re doing, but it’s about making that.

[00:35:54] Josua: Subtle, not small, maybe, but subtle, like change in how we look at it and what we focus on in our leadership, [00:36:00] executive team meetings

[00:36:01] Sanna: and the megatrends comes automatically.

[00:36:03] Josua: Yes,

[00:36:03] Sanna: we talked about earlier about, some people getting surprised by other products, growth affecting their business negatively.

[00:36:09] Sanna: That can happen. But if you look future forward, you just more, you’re more saying, Okay, what could hit us? [00:36:15] From risk management perspective, if you spend your time looking forward, you also trying to look Whoa, what can come and hit us?

[00:36:21] Josua: Yeah.

[00:36:21] Sanna: Whereas if you are looking backwards, you’re gonna crash if you spend too.

[00:36:26] Sanna: So it’s also balance. You have to learn from the past, of course, [00:36:30] but it’s a balance. If you spend too much on the back wagon, emotionally, energetically, and time-wise, you’re not spending enough time thinking what’s gonna come and hit you in the forward. That’s the basically, that’s the basic whole idea on that one.

[00:36:42] Sanna: And it’s again very basic and some people do it naturally. [00:36:45]

[00:36:45] Josua: Yeah.

[00:36:45] Sanna: And you as a leader have to find, if you start to have an organization who spends too much time on the history, you need to, another very simple thing, monthly reporting. Best companies do the monthly reporting latest on day 10.

[00:36:58] Sanna: Why? Because [00:37:00] then if they do it on day 20, they keep nibbling on the small things. So you have to have a system when you do ten, ten, day ten it’s a stupid thing, that’s a bad past thing, but that’s effectiveness on not spending time on the past, but actually getting the effectiveness of having the reporting done day [00:37:15] ten, so you can actually rest of the month think forward, versus waiting until day twenty, and then start to think maybe five days of the future.

[00:37:23] Josua: That’s very good. I’ll make a mental note because in the, some of the companies I’m involved with, we’re doing like 12, day 12 or [00:37:30] day 14. That’s

[00:37:30] Sanna: already okay. I’ve seen much worse. It’s okay, but it’s not great. But it’s not great. It’s not great. Because you create time to think about future when you don’t, or analyzing.

[00:37:38] Sanna: When you produce the numbers, then you can use the five days of actually what are the learnings.

[00:37:42] Josua: Yeah.

[00:37:43] Sanna: Instead of just making the [00:37:45] numbers. Because every job takes the time you give it to it.

[00:37:48] Josua: That’s very true. Very true. Okay. Future orientation.

[00:37:51] Sanna: Yes.

[00:37:52] Josua: Number two, which is maybe my personal favorite because I it’s so important.

[00:37:56] Josua: Focus.

[00:37:57] Sanna: Yes. It’s also my favorite, fa favorite. I came to [00:38:00] say it’s if there’s one word I would describe the best leadership teams and best companies that they can do, it’s, they are able to focus. And it is so simple, but it is actually, if I look at the whole society, the issue we have in the whole society is focusing, is not easy.

[00:38:13] Sanna: And I know it’s a twist of [00:38:15] words, but I say I hate. Prioritization because the way I see people using prioritization is they do 100 tasks and they put them in order of importance and then they start to work from the one up and going down. Rest focus for me is you take [00:38:30] the six, seven key ones. Park rest, forget about it, not rest, no, not forgetting them, but park them, put them where, do these, and do these properly.

[00:38:39] Sanna: Then of course the whole thing is how do you get those, but that’s a different story. But for me focusing is making a choice [00:38:45] of what’s really important. And that is both your business life and your private life and everything, but it’s making a choice. These are the things that are really important. Skip the rest.

[00:38:55] Sanna: And I use the other one in the parking place. I’ve just worked in a new leadership team, I [00:39:00] haven’t said yet. You have to physically do the parking place to start with. Why? Because everybody has their hobby horses. And maybe that hobby horse in the management team comes to a position 15. And they’re going to fight to get it up there.

[00:39:10] Sanna: But if you put it in the parking place where it’s visible, so it’s not, we didn’t kill. I’m not [00:39:15] asking people to kill projects or kill horses. I’m asking you to park it. The fantastic thing with a parking place is, and then you just take the things, it’s like garage, you take the cars out of the parking place.

[00:39:24] Sanna: The funny thing is, most of the things that have been in the parking place for about six months, they die [00:39:30] themselves.

[00:39:30] Josua: Yeah.

[00:39:30] Sanna: It’s just realize we don’t need it, that’s stupidity on what kind of. Yes. But focus is the absolutely essential skill to do. And it is to understand what’s really important, what’s really that matters in my job.

[00:39:42] Sanna: Back on bit on the results, what are the things [00:39:45] that I really do to improve the results I’ve been given to be taken down. So there’s a kind of connection of all of these. But focus is the one thing it’s, I had a boss, my, one of my early bosses drove me crazy because he was always saying fewer, bigger, better.

[00:39:58] Sanna: And I hated [00:40:00] it. And every time I hear myself saying it, I go back on the sun at 27 years, hating it and just saying, God, he was so right. Fewer, bigger, better. So it’s all about choosing, making the things you choose to make big, do them bigger, do the things that [00:40:15] really matter and do them really well.

[00:40:17] Sanna: And then park all the noise. And there will be some things, trouble expenses. You have to do them eventually. That’s like kind of just administration. Just ensure that you do them when really your energy levels are down. Because otherwise you’re wasting your energy. [00:40:30] But it’s really to choose those things.

[00:40:32] Sanna: And it’s about, all about saying yes. to something and saying no to something and park it. And the parking places is one of the key things I’ve found works because, very often you say, but I don’t want to do this, so let’s kill this project. [00:40:45] And then the emotion and the timing and the discussion about which project to kill takes all the time you could spend on working on the key ones.

[00:40:52] Sanna: Park them. It’s just a lazy way of ensuring that you at least don’t work with them at the moment and then you focus on the few ones. But [00:41:00] focus is key. The companies, the management teams that are able to focus are the ones that deliver the results.

[00:41:08] Josua: I love the parking. I hadn’t heard that. And I can imagine that saves a lot of emotional grief and time.

[00:41:13] Josua: Yes. That’s brilliant. [00:41:15] Very practical. Do you find that the management teams and leaders who really focus well, that kind of carries, that it transmits through the whole organization and in every area, or is it?

[00:41:26] Sanna: The issue is that if the top management focuses on [00:41:30] 20 things, the next level takes 40, 60, whatever.

[00:41:32] Sanna: So it does transfer. If they focus on six things. Then it automatically goes downwards. It still spreads there because there’s more people. There’s still more things done on a layer three. But it does that one the worst thing is the opposite [00:41:45] happens.

[00:41:45] Sanna: If the management, top management doesn’t focus, then nobody focuses, then everybody’s running that one. And I have this there’s this saying nearly at least all the Nordic countries where there’s small drops makes a big lake or a river or whatever they call it. And I just, that’s the worst thing that might [00:42:00] be true in the nature.

[00:42:00] Sanna: Take care. The business, that’s a killer. And, specifically in times of when you have a crisis, people say, yeah, but if I just can find a little money there and where it’s specifically on the time of crisis, you have to say, stop, we have to go after the big money because the small money won’t have, won’t [00:42:15] save you because you’ll dead as a company before the small money comes in and there’s two little things, so you have to focus on the big area, big things to do that.

[00:42:22] Sanna: So focus is the, it is easier when things are good. It’s most needed when things are bad. And focus is absolutely the 11 thing [00:42:30] that does separate. So it would be the one word if ever asked me, what am I looking for when I see a good team? It’s focus.

[00:42:36] Josua: Very interesting. When I think of focus, I think of courage because it takes courage to say, actually, this is opportunity.

[00:42:44] Josua: Of [00:42:45] all the opportunities, the customer segments customers. This is the one we’re gonna focus on. I’m gonna as a leader, take the risk and say this is their direction. It also takes courage and kind of maybe mental fortitude, integrity to say no to a lot of people, a lot of good things in order to pursue the [00:43:00] great.

[00:43:00] Josua: So How do we, how do leaders develop that courage to focus?

[00:43:05] Sanna: I think there is, there’s now this list, there’s two things on that one. First of all, I think it’s about saying no, which is more difficult than saying yes. You’re saying no is always much more difficult [00:43:15] because you’re rejecting. a thing or a person’s idea, but, and that’s just a mental thing and takes courage.

[00:43:21] Sanna: And you just have to learn as a leader, that is the biggest thing the leader has to learn is to learn, say no. And you, if you’re a good leader, if you learn to say no million [00:43:30] ways and that’s one thing. But I think the other thing with the focus is that I never ever say to focus to one thing, because if you only do one thing, you have to 50, 50 chance.

[00:43:39] Sanna: It’s right. If you do two things. Then you’re still a 50 50 both of them. So I would say about do three, [00:43:45] four things. That’s why I talk about six, seven things. Because the fact is also if you get very single mindedly boldly and you say no to everything else. First of all, human mind has very much difficulties of trying to be so single mindedly.

[00:43:56] Sanna: Because there’s all kind of things. And also it’s usually good if you have a couple of, [00:44:00] approach a couple of things you do which kind of requires you a bit. Swapping on the sides of your brain, how you work and what you do. So for me, it’s about focusing doesn’t mean focusing to one, because then you, it’s a gambling, it’s the red or black thingy.

[00:44:13] Sanna: But if you then have said that these are the three, [00:44:15] six things would you focus, then you are actually increasing your likelihood to succeed because you have focused to more things than one. But you haven’t focused yourself to trillion things, which then ensures that you spending the time on those which are most important.

[00:44:29] Sanna: Transcribed Does that [00:44:30] make sense?

[00:44:31] Josua: It makes perfect sense. I feel like the parking and this kind of like a folk broader focus, if you will really. It’s a very practical way of dealing with human nature and our tendency to want to boil the ocean. So it’s about reigning in maybe the worst of it and saying, Hey, we can [00:44:45] still be humans, but let’s do here’s the narrow bandwidth or something.

[00:44:50] Sanna: And it’s about humans, but that’s what all about, listen there’s another thing that I get really in trouble, but I say business is not a science and you have to remember it’s not a science because we can’t test in a lab [00:45:00] and that’s the definition of science. So you can test something in lab and it happens to reality.

[00:45:03] Sanna: Business is not a science. Economics is not the science. I luckily have a professor, Stu, to cover me on this one every time I say it but that is true. So it is actually a behavior. A business and economics is actually a [00:45:15] behavioral. things, which means you have to take in, that’s what you learn when you get to the age of mind that you’ve seen that if you ignore the human factors, you fail.

[00:45:25] Sanna: But it’s all about this, about saying no again, thing that you have to train [00:45:30] yourself. It’s a It’s It’s It is a thing about how do I say no? Because there’s a great idea as you will say no. So the parking then is a kind of a neat way of saying no. And maybe also things happen and change and that idea is great.

[00:45:41] Sanna: It wasn’t great. Two years ago, but it’s great now [00:45:45] because something happened in my environment but you have to say no you have to guard time is the only thing we can’t get back. So you have to be very mindful what you spend your time on. And that’s why the focusing and saying no has to come from.

[00:45:59] Josua: Got it. [00:46:00] And I just want to highlight for the listeners that you said when the most important thing you look for when evaluating an executive leadership team is focus. Crucial.

[00:46:09] Sanna: It is. And also, by the way a company strategy shows if the leadership is able to focus because [00:46:15] if the strategy I’m a, and in your room, I think you remember last time, I’m a big believer of one pager strategies, which for me is focusing.

[00:46:21] Sanna: You have to really focus. If you get it to a one page, if it’s a 20 pages, I’m working with this think tank and they met this very academic strategy, which was 25 pages and [00:46:30] say, thank you very much. You have to do it in a one page. They were like, ah, we are academics and we have No, you put it in one page and they put it in the one page in the end, like a summary page.

[00:46:38] Sanna: And they were like, wow, this is exactly because now anybody can see in the one page what you’re doing. You can explain it to [00:46:45] anybody. So it is a good, very, the strategy shows if the leadership team is able to make choices and focus.

[00:46:52] Josua: Absolutely. And there’s no excuse for not fitting in on one page.

[00:46:56] Josua: Okay. Third one. Fun. Yeah.

[00:46:58] Sanna: Yeah. [00:47:00] Fun. I keep saying fun because fun for me is the visual sign if there is a trust in the leadership team. Just yesterday I was in a leadership team, which I was in a meeting where Then different people attended the meeting and then suddenly there were two people in, [00:47:15] it’s been really nice meeting and some joking and smiling and all kinds of good meet wives.

[00:47:19] Sanna: And then the person enters the room and you can immediately feel that there is a non trust between two people

[00:47:25] Josua: and the whole

[00:47:25] Sanna: meeting changed. And there was a lot of meat. There was a lot of people coming and presenting. So it was a lot of, a lot of, [00:47:30] at the and for me, the fact that you can have this nice bit of a teasing, I think you don’t dare to smile if you don’t trust people because you’re very vulnerable when you smile.

[00:47:40] Sanna: You’re very vulnerable. If you give up or yourself, you joke, I. tripled over the fall. [00:47:45] You’ve seen me in the parking place this morning and I fell down. And if you tell that, you’re actually showing your vulnerable side of yourself. You’re also a vulnerable side if you tell a bad joke. Oh, that’s a bad dad joke.

[00:47:54] Sanna: But, it’s not about joking. It’s not about being a clown, but it’s a fact that if you’re in a team and you can feel it. [00:48:00] And yesterday I really thought it was so amazing because we had these people and you suddenly said, those two, there is no trust between those two, which is, which I actually have a note to it is correct, but it’s so visible.

[00:48:10] Sanna: And if you don’t have trust in a team. [00:48:15] The team is never going to bring a good results. So fun for me is a way of visualizing. If you are relaxed enough, you can joke a bit about saying, Oh God, you need a haircut type of thing. Then you show that there is this inter Connecting trust in the team [00:48:30] because you actually can take the lighter side of the life.

[00:48:33] Sanna: That’s one thing. The second thing is you are so often in a situation you can either cry or laugh. And I always prefer to laugh, and sometimes, smiling through your tears is the best way of getting your emotions out. And also, if [00:48:45] you can give the happy emotions, then the likelihood that when there will be need for negative emotions, they also come out.

[00:48:51] Sanna: again, because of trust. Then I start to read about this one because when I made the presentation, I’m saying, God, I can’t stand there as a chair and talk about fun. This, I’m going to [00:49:00] look like a like a clown. And then I actually went and read this book about this. I think they are Stanford professors who’ve done this one thing about who shows that the leaders who actually are seen the leaders who show, Fun who showed this emotion of smile [00:49:15] fun of not smile, not laughing, but the fun, sense of humor is actually a sense of that, that, that word.

[00:49:20] Sanna: So sense of humor, they seen 36 percent more motivating leaders than the ones who don’t show that one. There is actually a showing in the same study that if you put a joke on your selling, [00:49:30] pitch. You’re going to get 20 percent higher price. They measured this one, which was for me, quite funny. It was funny where it led to me because I was like, this was for me so clear that the fund and trust.

[00:49:39] Sanna: And then I said, I have to read about this one because this is the only one I needed some academic support in my words, [00:49:45] but hold that part of team. being able to have fun. And this has to do with the people, to be really honest, what I also realized, the worst kind of people are the ones who don’t have a sense of humor.

[00:49:57] Sanna: Because if you can’t laugh to yourself, there is no way you’re going to [00:50:00] develop. There will be stupid things you do, fall in the street or whatever. And if you can’t laugh at yourself, there’s no way you’re going to develop as a person. And I know nothing else than what people, when you know those who have their beanie on their head, so tight that the blood doesn’t circulate, who are, but this is business, this is serious.

[00:50:14] Sanna: beanie [00:50:15] No, this is business. It also needs to be fun because this is what we do most of our awake and hours, but it’s more because of this fun trust and how the trust and makes the teamwork better because and the fun is sometimes it’s a very, if you come [00:50:30] to a place and people do a little whatever joke on that kind of, you can see how the atmosphere lightens up, people get to breathe and all kinds of things.

[00:50:38] Sanna: So the fun is a superbly important secret saucer on a high performing teams. And [00:50:45] I can see, I can realize immediately when I first time enter the and, I told about yesterday, this one first time when I entered a room, if I’ve never seen the leadership team, I can, after having been them into two hours if this being humorous, having a having a kind of [00:51:00] sense of humor is part of their DNA, it will come out.

[00:51:05] Sanna: And if it doesn’t come out. But that’s for me, a sign of trust or versus sign of not trust.

[00:51:09] Josua: I think that’s so good because fun is not about this toxic positivity or forced [00:51:15] happiness or fake, let’s put on, it’s actually a great proxy for trust.

[00:51:18] Sanna: Yes. A sense of humor is also showing that you are coming there as a person, coming there as a human being and all human beings fail and those who take themselves too serious.

[00:51:29] Sanna: [00:51:30] Honestly I could say some really rude words, and I’m not doing them here. People know me, and I can say really rude words. But I think people who take, who can’t laugh at themselves are a failure for the society, and lead to things that are not good for anybody. [00:51:45]

[00:51:46] Josua: It’s so fascinating how there’s this this conception that the further you get up in business the more serious it becomes.

[00:51:52] Josua: And it’s so formal and you have to be you have to be so formal because it’s very serious and it’s absolutely not true. People are

[00:51:59] Sanna: people. Yeah, and you [00:52:00] have to be serious, don’t get me, I don’t think, I don’t understand that serious means you can’t have a sense of humor. No, they’re not.

[00:52:05] Sanna: Because the fact is that, if you’re, and this is about, if you want to be a good leader, it’s all about being who you are. It’s about, all about being a real person. And I [00:52:15] doubt even these persons who are super serious in their job, I’m quite sure when they’re with their friends, they laugh and the fact of us humans are is that if we see the person being super serious, it’s unhuman and if you’re unhuman, you don’t follow them back on the [00:52:30] motivation on the leadership on that one.

[00:52:31] Sanna: And I think in that sense, you have to really ensure that you. You are a authentic person in your job. And I’ve seen, luckily, quite many heavy senior leaders who, [00:52:45] who can combine it on their own ways. You don’t have to be, I’m not asking you to be a clown. I’m not, absolutely not asking you, laughing is not the same thing as having humor.

[00:52:53] Sanna: But it’s about bringing your whole person in there. There’s no reason you should be, Completely different person on your private and in your [00:53:00] work. There’s a fine to be a bit, of course you have other treats that you show more with your friends than in work or whatever, but it’s still bringing your whole person to work that gives people that makes people to want to follow you.

[00:53:12] Sanna: And the only way you as a leader can get results [00:53:15] is by other people. You’re not making the results yourself. It’s by others.

[00:53:18] Josua: Yeah. And if you’re able to do that, bring that balance and you put people at ease around you, whether it’s in a sales meeting or recruitment. Exactly.

[00:53:24] Sanna: Exactly. Exactly. Take down, calm down,

[00:53:28] Josua: feet on the ground.

[00:53:28] Josua: And if you can do it in a [00:53:30] balanced way, if you’re constantly making self deprecating jokes about how No, That’s not it. No. But if you can do it in a balanced way, it shows supreme confidence.

[00:53:38] Sanna: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it also when it’s, you also know very quickly that some people, it’s not about finding [00:53:45] the sore spot and putting your finger on that one.

[00:53:47] Sanna: It is about, different people can take different ways and and it’s also being mindful. It’s not someone saying, I hope I didn’t go, you can just have this minor thing. Oh, this and that. I saw you falling in the parking place. And then if you realize there, I’m sorry for you.

[00:53:58] Sanna: If I said something, it’s [00:54:00] very easy to backwards on that one, as long as you keep it on a kind, I call it the kind fun is maybe the right way of doing that one.

[00:54:07] Josua: That’s a good, that’s a good word. Okay, so we covered the three essentials. Yes. And three secret superpowers. Yes. I think safe [00:54:15] to say if leadership teams focus on these, that’s one, focus on these and succeed at these, then we, companies are, the results are going to follow.

[00:54:23] Sanna: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Excellent.

[00:54:25] Josua: Okay, so I’d love, we have a, we have to wrap up here shortly, unfortunately, but I’d [00:54:30] love to ask maybe a few rapid fire questions. Oh, go on. Get your perspectives. Yes. Because I just not mentioned this as on, on a personal level, like the first time we interacted, or No, I, I heard you, we didn’t interact but that made me reach out and get the first interview was at the Google event.

[00:54:43] Sanna: Yeah.

[00:54:44] Josua: And you had the [00:54:45] keynote. I forget exactly what the focus, the topic was, but I was like. What was really clear to me is that you have a lot of courage and you were very interesting and you spoke very clearly and very boldly. I was like that, that for me makes, yes, but I have the courage [00:55:00] to speak simply to not paint this complicated facade.

[00:55:03] Josua: So anyway I want to get your takes on some things. For instance, you have this really broad perspective on the economic landscape in the mix. You’re on the boards of all these companies travel extensively and so on. So what’s [00:55:15] your. Pulse on what’s happening right now.

[00:55:17] Sanna: I think that the the, my pulse is that sense that the past is very low and that doesn’t really, it’s a low in all of Europe.

[00:55:24] Sanna: I think the Europe is, I am very concerned about the Europe’s competitiveness. I think we are putting [00:55:30] too much focus on administration, all kind of things. So what I think we need to push, I need all the, Denmark is doing you. Splendidly well of the Nordic countries. It’s the country that suddenly that soon has no government depth at all because it’s 20 percent [00:55:45] and Finland is going to 90%.

[00:55:46] Sanna: But I think all the countries need to put focus on a growth on growth. Again, another bad word, results. Profit growth, but we have to understand again, for example, for the sustainability, we need more [00:56:00] investments and they’re seriously big investments needed. So for my question is all the governments need to say, how do we do two things?

[00:56:08] Sanna: One thing is to really push activities that are in the growth on R and D. On helping companies [00:56:15] to grow from taxation perspective to be able to put more money in there, making everybody’s ability to invest on the local companies much easier. It’s also part of taxation. How do you handle it? All these things need to be very much in focus in the northern Europe, but all the Europe needs to go to an [00:56:30] under regulation mood.

[00:56:30] Sanna: Let’s not go in there. There’s enough people talking about it. I agree with all of it because Europe is becoming graveyard. We’re going to be soon the museum off the world, and that’s Lots of tourists.

[00:56:40] Josua: Correct. Correct. No real

[00:56:42] Sanna: business. That doesn’t really work out because we have one of the [00:56:45] best work, specifically Nordics have the most educated workforces.

[00:56:49] Sanna: So we have all the raw material to be much better. Then we also have to do really something really serious effectiveness on the governor’s spending because the spending levels are going to go up because the [00:57:00] people are getting older and blah, blah, blah, blah. We need to do some really tough discussions and really tough expenditures.

[00:57:04] Sanna: We need to ensure that we get our administration. more effective and all kind of things on government basis. But it’s all about this combination. Do a combination of pushing. Activities that [00:57:15] ensure that there is a future growth and a future investments and a future innovation. On the other hand, we really have to get tough on trying to figure out how do we get the cost of the countries down?

[00:57:28] Sanna: Because the real cost, [00:57:30] what I call about warm hands, taking care of the elderly, that will go up and should go up. So we need to ensure that this administration type of costs are handled very heavy handedly and being very focused. Choiceful. We can’t do all of it. And if there’s a one [00:57:45] group of people who are not very good of saying no, it’s politicians.

[00:57:47] Sanna: And again, they could also do this parking thing. They could just saying these are the key, rather focus on the key messages and keep hammering them home versus saying yes to everything.

[00:57:56] Josua: It’s a bit problematic that we have both on the growth side of [00:58:00] things and also on the cost side of things, we are having some challenges.

[00:58:02] Sanna: Yes, but we have to take both of them.

[00:58:04] Josua: Yes,

[00:58:05] Sanna: there is no other way. And when you went to school and thought you first grow first cut and then you grow. No. That time is over. You need to do both same time. Yeah, and it’s a very difficult story to tell to, to, to [00:58:15] somebody who’s saying, so you’re trying to, cutting, cutting some costs here and same time you’re giving something to somebody else.

[00:58:20] Sanna: And it is a very and that’s storytelling. There is a good room. For people who are able to do simple stories told to a general public. If we, we don’t [00:58:30] have enough people who can help the politicians to do that story and just keep hammering it home. It’s also difficult for politicians because they talk about one thing today, one thing tomorrow.

[00:58:38] Sanna: But they just need to also figure out what’s their OKRs.

[00:58:42] Josua: That would be something. That would be something

[00:58:44] Sanna: [00:58:45] that would be something we’ll be interesting. We’ll, ask all ministries on ministries to do their, six, eight, okay. Are six okay. I was only practice. So let’s see what happens.

[00:58:53] Josua: Yeah, I think people don’t realize that we’re. Actually seeing a huge divergence like between, for instance, Denmark and Finland. [00:59:00] I think Denmark GDP is like 30 percent higher now. And there was a time where they were on par or Finland was even higher.

[00:59:05] Sanna: Finland was higher.

[00:59:05] Josua: Yeah.

[00:59:06] Sanna: Finland was higher. No.

[00:59:06] Sanna: In that sense. And we can talk about a lot about, and that’s one of my favorite topics. We’ll take another time. What can all the Nordic countries learn from Denmark? Because Denmark is a [00:59:15] is, there’s things you can’t learn because they are like how the foundations are, all the medical business, which is foundation based and how the foundations are ensuring that the investments stay in the country and that kind of things.

[00:59:24] Sanna: But there’s a lot of things you can learn. But we need to go more to the Danish way, which is much more entrepreneurship, [00:59:30] much more flexible, quicker taking decisions and take tough decisions. The Danish politicians, I have to impress them every time there’s a new parliament. They take really nasty decisions within the first years, and everybody hates them, and their grades go down.

[00:59:43] Sanna: They know that by the time the election [00:59:45] comes, everybody’s forgotten what they’ve done in the year one. But they need, they know that in the year one, I just have to make a list of nasty decisions. Because in the, year before election I have to be in the other mood. And so they just do a real nasty decisions and Finland first year the, and it’s a similar kind [01:00:00] of coalition government.

[01:00:01] Sanna: Finns, they still talk after first year, what do we think about things? And Danes have already taken the nasty decisions and then

[01:00:06] Josua: Rip the band aid off and

[01:00:07] Sanna: Exactly. And really nasty really unliked. And people forget. You have to, election, elective mind as a voter is three months.

[01:00:14] Josua: [01:00:15] Interesting.

[01:00:15] Josua: Huge respect to people who make unpopular decisions, whether in business or politics.

[01:00:19] Sanna: Absolutely. That is the, that’s the leader’s biggest job. It’s not easy.

[01:00:24] Josua: Yeah, because every, the popular decisions, they make themselves.

[01:00:26] Sanna: They’re easy. Yes, they’re

[01:00:28] Josua: easy. You can’t so that’s the one thing you can’t [01:00:30] delegate.

[01:00:30] Josua: I think, you’ve been, you have a lot of experience, you’re constantly learning. I’m always interested to hear if there’s anything about business or life, like anything big. That you recently changed your mind about something you used to believe and you’ve in the last few [01:00:45] years been like Just made a complete 180 Anything that comes to mind?

[01:00:49] Sanna: Listen, there is this I’m a big fan of Churchill. I guess I’m quite happy I never live with him because I’m quite sure I wouldn’t like the person if I would meet him in real life. Even if that’s my favorite person to ever meet. But [01:01:00] Churchill always said that luckily eating my words have never given me a bad digestion.

[01:01:04] Sanna: And maybe I’ve become a bit vain on that sense that I know I’ve done that. Don’t get me wrong, but I’m having a real difficult time to think up front now quickly what have I changed my opinion about. But there is I [01:01:15] think that’s one of the things actually that you do.

[01:01:18] Sanna: Always hold yourself open to, to change your mind. Maybe there is a, now this is a very timely, and this thing will actually end up very soon. Next week this will be over, but I was [01:01:30] recently playing a war game. I don’t know if you’ve ever been in war games. I was playing war game where there was also businesses involved and also the Danish Navy strategies were involved and all kind of things.

[01:01:39] Sanna: It was really great. We were playing a war game. War game is just playing scenarios of the U. S. [01:01:45] election. And if you want to say, I went from, I don’t care who wins as long as there’s a winner, because I just, playing the war game, you realize that not a clear winner

[01:01:54] Josua: is

[01:01:55] Sanna: the worst scenario of all of them.

[01:01:57] Josua: So

[01:01:57] Sanna: if you want to have a very easy, this two weeks ago, we played the [01:02:00] and I went from having an opinion. Not that it matters to not have any opinion at all who wins with one exception, just please give us a winner. Because if we for next three months are going to have a court discussions, who’s the winner and who’s not, we’re going [01:02:15] to get to places we don’t want to go.

[01:02:17] Sanna: Maybe that’s the one way of explaining that when you do something and you learn and you realize that the worst case scenario isn’t what you thought was worst case scenario. The worst case scenario isn’t the winner. So that was maybe a very recent, this kind [01:02:30] of not maybe 180, but just again, showing you when you learn things and when you test things and you play the game and when we play the game about one of the sides winning and what would that mean?

[01:02:39] Sanna: Of course, there’s the whole Congress. We have to remember that what we forget here. Much bigger impact, the big impact on [01:02:45] presidents, but also big impact about the conference and the house election, but just having to realize that it’s not about who wins. It’s about if nobody wins, what’s the worst case scenario?

[01:02:54] Sanna: And you do that by learning and it, it’s saying, wow.

[01:02:57] Josua: That’s really, that’s actually really fascinating. I’d love to, to [01:03:00] get to cover that, but we don’t have time. That’s

[01:03:02] Sanna: fixed next week. We’ll see what it is. But the worst case isn’t that they won, the wrong person wins. The worst case is there is no winner.

[01:03:08] Josua: Yeah. And I feel like there’s probably a lot of applications to business where we have this idea of a binary, like we get so fixed minded. [01:03:15] Voila. And so we can to step outside and consider, both opportunities, yes, both in terms of opportunities, but also threats.

[01:03:22] Sanna: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[01:03:23] Josua: Sanna, it’s been an absolute pleasure to have you on. So thank you so much.

[01:03:26] Sanna: Thank you for inviting me again.

[01:03:28] Josua: We have to do this [01:03:30] in one year, in, in three years time. We went from board to executive teams.

[01:03:33] Sanna: We’ll see where we end up.

[01:03:35] Josua: We’ll see where we end up.

[01:03:35] Josua: But no it’s really, it’s been a pleasure. And I think it’s so great that there’s people like you, because like I said, the one thing that stood out to me from hearing you speak the first time was like a lot of [01:03:45] courage. And I guess maybe help living in Denmark helps a little bit like the Finns who live abroad tend to have some of the stronger opinions.

[01:03:52] Josua: Maybe I don’t know if it’s chicken or egg, but it’s like it’s so invigorating, I think it’s [01:04:00] so necessary. So I think you’re a very important person For Finland. So really thankful for that. And thankful, thank you for coming on and best of luck with all the the engagements that you have.

[01:04:09] Josua: And absolutely. Let’s do a third one.

[01:04:12] Sanna: That’s right. Thank you so much for inviting me. [01:04:15]

[01:04:16] Intro: Thank you for listening. You can find all episodes of the growth pod on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple podcasts.